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Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

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Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#61

Post by Spivak »

mc32 wrote: post #22
Spivak wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll speak up with an example from a man's perspective; it has nothing to do with attraction or religion, it's just not worth the risk. If I'm one-on-one with a woman and a misunderstanding makes her feel uncomfortable or threatened and she accuses me of misconduct or sexual harassment I'm at an enormous disadvantage without any witnesses. When even being accused could be career ending it's best to bring someone else…

I understand your PoV. I would say it would be extremely rare for a woman (or man) to make baseless accusations from uncertain interpretations. People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. That said, one has to acknowledge there are genuinely malicious people --but they typically have a pattern and it will not be their first time making false ac…

I'm not even considering the case where the woman is being malicious; even in the case a misunderstanding her feelings could be completely valid. For example, she could take me buying her a drink as an advance when I'm really just getting the next round. Or I could be venting or speaking passionately about something and have it come off as scary; I'm a pretty big dude and I have a hearing problem so I talk too loud sometimes.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#62

Post by speedplane »

tluyben2 wrote: post #48
speedplane wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of ways it could be made appropriate, e.g., group setting, a long work-history together, very equal power dynamic. But the idea of a superior bringing out a female for a drink one-on-one is almost certainly a recipe for disaster. Go for lunch, coffee, or a game of golf instead.

You are talking about a superior; then you have to be a bit more careful. What if equal colleagues? I cannot why that is a problem. It is just a drink.

In theory, I agree, but in practice, no two are exactly equal. Even if they have the same title, some have more influence, connections, respect. And if it's just a drink, that's totally fine too. The concern is that if one, the other, or both become intoxicated, it may become more.

The solution isn't hard, bring a buddy with you, or do something that doesn't involve drinking.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#63

Post by dijit »

Inconel wrote: post #52
dijit wrote: post #6

I seem to be the only person in the comments that agrees with the article. But I'm not American. I will absolutely not be alone with a female as a male if I can help it. One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. Conversely; as a male a female is quite likely weaker than I am, thus the risk to them is that I cause them injury or force them to do something. Which is a horrendous thought an…

I know it's not polite to ask about downvotes on HN but I'm also unsure why you where so quickly downvoted. I personally don't feel the same way you do, but I also don't think you said anything rude or outlandish. As a small counter to your post though, I've read some articles recently talking about the importance of general social networking and one on one mentoring in some professions with the point being made that…

Good response; I'm glad it worked out for your friend.

I would agree that it might be a disadvantage for women, but conversely I would just make an effort to ensure there was _someone_ else with us, male or female. So instead of drinks 1:1 outside work, or a 1:1 meeting, It would instead be three people which mitigates both parties liability.

I am a senior engineer, not a manager, but if I were a manager one on ones would be necessary, I would attempt to have HR in each 1:1 as an ass-saving measure anyway.

But then again, I believe I would be a poor manager so I don't wish it on anybody.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#64

Post by [deleted] »

cbanek wrote: post #30
meric wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the situations where the manager and the managed are of the opposite sex and one or both are aware of their own ethical and spiritual vulnerabilities maybe it'd be a good idea to have a 2:1 or 1:2 instead of a 1:1.

I hope you're joking, but if you're not, that sounds like a horrible idea to me. Being a woman, and having had 1:1's with male managers for pretty much my entire tech career, I've never heard of this happening. I don't know what spiritual vulnerabilities you are talking about, but in terms of ethics if you can't work with a female employee, you shouldn't be a manager. You're basically telling the person that you can'…

[deleted]

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#65

Post by vkou »

home_boi wrote: post #47
vkou wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'll lose your job. The default outcome in he-said-she-said, no other proof is no action from HR. On the other hand, if it's he-said-she-said-she-also-said-she-also-said-she-also-said... Or if it's he-said-she-said-and-also-has-texts-and-emails... People involved in the latter two... Do love to claim that it was just he-said-she-said. Until the counterparty brings undisputable evidence to the table.

> The default outcome in he-said-she-said, no other proof is no action from HR. There needs to be more justification to this statement. What happens in HR is basically a black box to most people.

Our society, our justice system, and our corporate culture has an enormous bias in favor of harassers, abusers, and rapists. There is enormous pressure to marginalize, ignore, and punish victims, to ignore accusations, and to protect aggressors.

See - practically every single instance of rape/harassment/abuse that has hit the public eye. The consistent pattern in all of them is how many victims had to come forward, how many complaints were filed against HR, how many people had to tell the same fucking story until someone took them seriously.

If you are an actual harasser, the deck is incredibly stacked in your favour. The odds that you'll be punished are low. If you also have actual innocence on your side, and lack of any proof on theirs, the odds are even lower.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#66

Post by avaer »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #14

Sex is one of the greatest things both now and in the past of bringing out stupid behavior in people. The number of people who have destroyed their wealth, jobs, and/or reputations is staggering. It is not just of matter of more training or consequences. Even with such punishment as being impaled alive http://www.executedtoday.com/2017/03/15/1718-stepan-glebov-l... or with the threat of eternal damnation, people stil…

There's hope that convincing simulation technology can remove other humans from the equation and keep the stupidity contained, the way we've done with other intoxicants.

But that's a chicken and egg problem, because a prerequisite is getting society to accept it as ok to be sexually fulfilled by technology when your tastes are considered illicit. People still get sent to jail for having racy cartoons in some parts of the world.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#67

Post by diminish »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #14

Sex is one of the greatest things both now and in the past of bringing out stupid behavior in people. The number of people who have destroyed their wealth, jobs, and/or reputations is staggering. It is not just of matter of more training or consequences. Even with such punishment as being impaled alive http://www.executedtoday.com/2017/03/15/1718-stepan-glebov-l... or with the threat of eternal damnation, people stil…

At some point if we can augment humans to separate reproduction from sex (act of sex), we can free sex from the 'heavy' meaning it receives in social contexts being the subject of so much drama and tragedy. When sex and reproduction divorces, we ll pave a new way for reproduction to be made more reasonably and sex to become more abundant - by implanting Krause bodies all around the human skin not only few current locations.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#68

Post by eropple »

dijit wrote: post #6

I seem to be the only person in the comments that agrees with the article. But I'm not American. I will absolutely not be alone with a female as a male if I can help it. One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. Conversely; as a male a female is quite likely weaker than I am, thus the risk to them is that I cause them injury or force them to do something. Which is a horrendous thought an…

I didn't downvote you, but your post is hyperbolic and creates barriers for women out of unrealized, unrealistic fear. In particular:

> One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over.

This flies in the face of of...well, just about everything, in most industrialized countries. Serial sexual harassers get away with it for a long time and men who out-and-out assault women do to; somewhere almost certainly north of 50% (NARAL says 90%) of rapes go unreported and of those something like a quarter are ever brought to trial. Being fired--maybe--doesn't make your life "essentially over", and (in the US and the parts of Europe I'm familiar with) there's nothing that can be disclosed to a future employer to say "hey, that dude's a creep" without opening the former employer up to potential danger.

And to be crystal clear, everything I just said is a bug, not a feature. Sexual predators in the workplace, most of whom are male, by and large get away with it. It's why the last couple weeks of dudes not getting away with it are so notable. Fearing the same is temporarily-embarrassed-millionaire silliness projected into a new realm, nothing more.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#69

Post by mc32 »

throwawayable wrote: post #58
mc32 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your PoV. I would say it would be extremely rare for a woman (or man) to make baseless accusations from uncertain interpretations. People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. That said, one has to acknowledge there are genuinely malicious people --but they typically have a pattern and it will not be their first time making false ac…

So when there is no evidence one way or the other, you're saying you'd believe the accuser. This pretty much supports the grandparent's statement. I know of a woman who has made a successful career of extorting "settlements with mutual confidentiality agreements" out of a succession of positions as a PA to multiple high level executives, with each exec settling for tens of thousands to avoid this person leveling dama…

I don' think you understood what I said.

My point is that a woman (or man) will not come out of a 1:1 or a drive home or talks over dinner and take an ambiguous statement or thing they thought they saw or heard and run to HR. People are rather loath to make the wrong conclusion and will give other the benefit of the doubt.

Now, bad, vindictive, extortionists, etc., will not need you to take them out for drinks or have a 1:1 to get their way. So it's beside the point. I'm speaking of interpersonal communication, work relationships, etc. with normal people. We need not fear normal people.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#70

Post by lqdc13 »

eulo__ wrote: post #34
aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

Such an irrational fear, like worrying about getting hit by lightning on the way to the shops. Also goodluck convincing anyone that I sexually assaulted someone. People wouldn't be able to take you seriously after a claim like that.

How is it irrational? According to the UN, 40-50% of women in Europe experienced unwanted sexual advancement at work[1].

That is, statistically speaking without breaking it down by industry, close to half of women at your workplace are getting harassed and could report the perpetrator.

For comparison, lighting kills 0.000017% of the population per year.

[1] http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situa...

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