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Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

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61–70 of 77 posts

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#61
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is a learned behavior. Consciousness is a property of the learner. Language may influence conscious experience, but it certainly doesn't create it.

I think the development of complex language and the internal feedback mechanism it enabled might have led to a higher level of consciousness in humans.

It is entirely possible that language development created a self-reinforcing feedback loop for the development of intelligence. I don't think intelligence and consciousness are necessarily correlated though.

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#62
post #18

"Conscious states include states of perceptual experience, bodily sensation, mental imagery, emotional experience, occurrent thought, and more. There is something it is like to see a vivid green, to feel a sharp pain, to visualize the Eiffel tower, to feel a deep regret, and to think that one is late. Each of these states has a phenomenal character, with phenomenal properties (or qualia) characterizing what it is lik…

Always hilarious to me how many educated humans will actually go argue that they are p-zombies rather than face the paradoxes of consciousness. I guess all I'll say is, physics seems capable of explaining the evolution of our universe and e.g. the emergent complex phenomena of solar systems and planets and such. Physics and the other hard sciences do not seem to lend a lot of clarity as to how a self-organizing piece…

You seek an explanation from physics which should have better been sought from psychology, neurology or AI.

I prefer to see consciousness as the ability of agents to adapt in relation to the external world. In the end, what matters is not consciousness, but the whole "game" the agent is playing. Humans play the game called "life" where reward is to exist and reproduce. Other agents play other games with other rewards - the concept is general, agents can be people, animals, AIs and other complex systems.

So, it feels like something to see a sunset because you have eyes connected to a visual area that creates a model of the external world. This image has a meaning to you because it represents a certain probability of getting rewards. Rewards matter because they guide your actions.

That's the root of why it feels like something to see a sunset. People who don't have the right reward/values structure don't get to reproduce and enjoy sunsets. So it's not so much a brain thing, but an "agent vs the world" thing.

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#63
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the development of complex language and the internal feedback mechanism it enabled might have led to a higher level of consciousness in humans.

It is entirely possible that language development created a self-reinforcing feedback loop for the development of intelligence. I don't think intelligence and consciousness are necessarily correlated though.

Unless you think a shrimp is as conscious as a person, or that a dog is completely lacking in consciousness, you have to accept that consciousness comes in degrees. Unless you believe consciousness is supernatural, you have to accept that it has an organic origin. What that says to me is that humans have evolved brain structures that give us a higher level of consciousness than other animals, and IMO the best candidate for how that happened is we learned how to self-reflect through things like speech and art.

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#64
post #60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any advance in this debate since things that Dennett and Hofstadter wrote 20+ years ago (both independently and in their co-authored book "The Mind's I"). Is it really surprising that we have a first person subjective experience? We know that we are incredibly complex things, constantly integrating and acting on very complicated external stimuli. Such a system should have references to its own body and it…

RE: second paragraph. But that explains, for example, the physical phenomenon of language. A complex system has reference points to itself, and structures in the brain organize to speak about things, including about itself, using terms like "experience" and "feels like, etc". But it does not explain the conscious "internal" phenomenon of language, of preparing a speech, of grasping for words, etc. See what I mean? Li…

I don't see at all. You're just putting the word 'conscious' in italics. What I said was not only about language, language the reason we have words like 'conscious' and 'experience'. Why do we have the experience? It doesn't make sense to me to suggest that we wouldn't. Dynamic processing of internal representations and input is what intelligent systems do, ants, bats, chimps, and deep neural networks do it. Those processes obviously exist, and you call your own process your subjective conscious experience.

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#65
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Subjective perception is "hard" because everything we know about physics works exactly the same without it, so at this point we have literally no idea where it fits." - Something defined as magically, unexplainably different indeed tautologically can't be explained by physics. - But internal representation of phenomena by the brains of humans certainly seems like it can be explained by biology, physics and general c…

> - But internal representation of phenomena by the brains of humans certainly seems like it can be explained by biology, physics and general common sense. Yes, it can. Computer programs have internal representation of phenomena, and so do brains/minds. This doesn't address the problem of consciousness, though. > That the brain produces internal processes when it receives external stimuli - how hard is that? Again, n…

"But that's the problem, because that understanding doesn't imply anything that resembles consciousness.."

- For any given information processing system, it is reasonable to expect that the thing could distinguish kinds of memory. A cpu can read main memory or it can read. Whether data originates internally is almost certainly going to be a "big deal" for any such system. Thus if an information system is self-representing, "reading from a port is different from reading from main memory" and reasonably other distinctions are possible. Humans are social beings, we use language socially but an equivalent statement "internal experience is different sensory input" also seems clearly true.

Human share language, take inputs of language and process these internally apparently creating internal representations and possibly comparing these representation to their non-linguistic experiences. A fox in the world, a sensation of a fox, a memory of a fox, and someone's description of a fox or use of the word "fox" are different but we OK with combining them most of the time (seen a fox in the wild once in my life but I feel OK with the concept, expecting this would an instance of the category/species fox).

Human language of course, allows ambiguity and violation of selectional restriction - you can ask for the color of ideas and so-forth. In this context, creating a thing that "resembles consciousness" is elided to "mean" creating an internal sensation that resembles the sensation distinguishing internal and external input. But it is easy to imagine any given system naturally reject creating such an sensation unless it was "real".

So it's easy to imagine a person who takes in input and claims "none of this resembles consciousness".

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#66
post #43
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question and the answer is that both the sun and the number 15 are concepts created by the mind because creating concepts has great survival value. You are conscious of these concepts. "Consciousness" itself is also a concept you are conscious of. We tend to confuse the map with the territory - perhaps because believing the reality of the map makes us more real and gives a sense of control over things -…

The sun is a physical body that exists despite us, 15 exists only on the mind.

Perhaps investigate what physicality is beyond the awareness of it. The only reason something objective exists is that there's a separate subject to say so. And no, this doesn't mean that nothing existed prior to human beings, it does mean however that the division of the world into "physical" vs "mental", "objective" vs. "subjective", "me" vs. "not me" was created by the human mind.

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#67

I've always been more on the materialist side. Reading this, I finally managed to put a finger on something that's been bothering me. Our brain knows it is conscious. If consciousness is an immaterial phenomenon, emerging from those processes, how can the brain know it is conscious? What way could a brain possibly have to measure consciousness? When I refer to brain, i mean the physical, scientifically measurable com…

You forgot : we are not conscious but our program simulate the believe we are.

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#68

I've always been more on the materialist side. Reading this, I finally managed to put a finger on something that's been bothering me. Our brain knows it is conscious. If consciousness is an immaterial phenomenon, emerging from those processes, how can the brain know it is conscious? What way could a brain possibly have to measure consciousness? When I refer to brain, i mean the physical, scientifically measurable com…

In university I wrote an essay arguing that consciousness was something in another dimension of reality and that the brain "projected" it's perceptions into that dimension. I also argued that that other dimension didn't pass any data back to the brain -- it was a one way street. ie. I argued that behavior wasn't influenced by the other dimension. However, like yourself I realized that my theory was false. The very fa…

The counter exemple assume that the brain produce thoughts but :

If everything is perfectly causal there is a possibility that there is no such thing.

Another theory is that the brain yo think but is a receiver that gets idea from outside.

Also, the brain may be indispensable for thoughts but maybe not the only component.

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#69

I've always been more on the materialist side. Reading this, I finally managed to put a finger on something that's been bothering me. Our brain knows it is conscious. If consciousness is an immaterial phenomenon, emerging from those processes, how can the brain know it is conscious? What way could a brain possibly have to measure consciousness? When I refer to brain, i mean the physical, scientifically measurable com…

Without language there is no consciousnesses. That's it. The brain does what it does. We think, occasionally, then imagine that we cause brain to function. All animals are just dandy without complex language, it's not really a miracle that we are conscious, just a different too.

Conscientiousness is way more simpler than anything thay requires a language. It's just being, feeling and knowing it happens. Not description or analysis of it.

Re: Consciousness and its Place in Nature (2002)

#70
post #2

A framework for conceptual ideas is provided, but within this lengthy quantity of words, not much else is accomplished other than to admit that consiousness is safely a material reality.

A comment is provided criticizing the article as usual, not much else is accomplished other than unintentionally admitting that the commenter doesn't really understand the gigantic difficulty of the problem at hand.

Eh, to be clear, this anatomical identification of the various attributes of sapience( dialing in on its approximate residence within systems matter, somewhere between the quantum and newtonian realms), rings mostly of opening remarks, and not the climactic declaration of a new discovery.

It's foundational writing pointing toward more to come, if it's anything.

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