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Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

krebsonsecurity.com

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Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#61

Post by elefanten »

omot wrote: post #58

I think the question we should really be asking ourselves is why so many valuable tech companies hail from the US, specifically the bay area. Having grown up in the Bay Area, there weren't any more special focus on mathematics / computer science in school, in fact we were encouraged to pursue whatever we wanted to pursue. If we felt like we were bad at math, we weren't forced into it, we should only pursue math if we…

I think those are different questions: why should we teach CS and what ecosystem properties create business value.

But as for the Silicon Valley question... it gets asked and debated a LOT. Especially here on HN, I'd say.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#62

Post by pps43 »

nopinsight wrote: post #26
rndmize wrote: post #4

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things. I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and…

It seems math textbooks in the US are 2-3 grade levels easier than those in East Asia. SAT Math is considered a piece of cake even by non-top but good students there. I heard Russian math is similarly rigorous. This reduces the level of logical thinking skills most American children get to practice from school. Programming well requires good abstract and logical thinking which is easier to develop from a young age. T…

> why American math curriculum is significantly easier than those in East Asia and Russia?

I see three reasons.

1. In the US, no child can be left behind. The only way to do it is to lower the plank for everyone.

2. Over-reliance on standardized testing, judging students and teachers by scores alone. Knowing how and when to intelligently guess on multiple choice questions is rewarded, while ability to communicate well during oral exam is not.

3. Textbooks are ridiculous. Lots of paper, with very little density, and crazy expensive. Textbooks in Russia are more like AoPS books.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#63

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

webnrrd2k wrote: post #43
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logical thinking skills are the gateway to independent thought. Too much of that and the proles could stage a revolt.

Wouldn't that be true in Russia and East Asia as well?

Except their citizens are aware that their freedom is constrained. Americans are deluded by the "land of the free" mantra. The powers that be don't want to face a collective red pill movement.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#65

Post by samangan »

omot wrote: post #58

I think the question we should really be asking ourselves is why so many valuable tech companies hail from the US, specifically the bay area. Having grown up in the Bay Area, there weren't any more special focus on mathematics / computer science in school, in fact we were encouraged to pursue whatever we wanted to pursue. If we felt like we were bad at math, we weren't forced into it, we should only pursue math if we…

The origins of Silicon Valley being a technological hub go back all the way to WWII and the economy of the early computer industry. So, I feel the USA being an economic and military superpower is a pretty easy explanation for why 'Silicon Valley' exists in the bay area today and not somewhere else. Obviously, there have been many years and many technological revolutions since those early days but there are pretty clear trails of people, and money leading all the way back.

As far as trying to answer why so many other countries consistently beat America in math and technology I think a small answer can be gleaned from your statement: "we were encouraged to pursue whatever we wanted to pursue." That is not all that common in many countries and cultures in the world. I think a lot of it has to do with economic or political desperation. I have worked with people who learned how to code because they didn't even have running water in their village in India and programming was a way out. Or more relevant to this story, they lived in a Russian town and got a PhD in engineering so they could come to America and be an engineer. These types of stories are very, very common in the Bay Area. Looking at the education systems is helpful, but I think you need a real driving force to get most people motivated to learn difficult things.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#66

Post by [deleted] »

pm90 wrote: post #9
rndmize wrote: post #4

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things. I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and…

Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well , which turned a lot of people off of it. Eventually, things like Khan Academy might prove a lot more useful in making math and science a culturally desirable field.

[deleted]

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#67

Post by bluedino »

vrutkovs wrote: post #6

This article may have a point about poor state of basic computer education in US, but its just blindly guesses the reasons on the topic of why so many hackers are from ex-USSR countries. A pretty good level of CS doesn't help here much - take a look at Europe, for instance. The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes…

At many colleges the CS program is watered down, similar to how watered down the math curriculum is in high school. You barely need a half a year of Algebra to graduate and when you get to college you're doing HTML and very simple C++ (well, C using cout/cin) programs that you're really just copying from the other students.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#68

Post by xdna »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #59
arkades wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2-3 grade delta sounds about right. I was a good but not too math student in (Eastern European) country before moving here. I Didn't have to open a math book again for about 3 years. Most of my friends from the same generation of immigrants would give the same number. More was simply expected of us. Not "hoped for" or "aspired to", but expected. And parents weren't at loggerheads with teachers; what teachers said…

As someone who grew up in India, I can attest this about the education system there too. This whole culture of parents always ready to come and fight with teachers over the smallest things just didn't exist. Other than in extraordinary circumstances, you gave the teacher and the system the benefit of doubt. If you were scolded by the teacher, there was a good chance you would get another scolding back at home once yo…

This is true. Discipline is very important in learning process. Another important thing is - completing at least primary education in mother tongue which improves thinking process. Sadly these days parents prefer international public schools.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#69

Post by 0xbear »

russellbeattie wrote: post #56
0xbear wrote: post #47

Russian-American here: in Russia you don't get to choose what to study, mostly. Certainly not in middle or high school -- everyone studies the exact same set of subjects. In college you don't get to choose individual subjects, you choose the profession, and that comes with a set of courses already baked in, some of which you'd never take on your own. Whether you're good or not at something, that's something you cant…

I have a kid as well, and have the same exact thoughts about his future and incentives - only I grew up in rural New England where it was, "get good at something" or "become a logger for the papermill nearby that will probably close in the next decade or so." I would love for the US to have a viable vocational education path. So many students in high school prepping for college who don't want to be there.

If you think about it, _a lot_ of proverbial paper mills will close in the next decade. Yet somehow it doesn't seem to sink in.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#70

Post by khedoros1 »

watwut wrote: post #48
magic_beans wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really confusing. And although I love HN, I find the term "hacker" to refer to any sort of programmer or software developer to be increasingly idealistic (bordering on lame), especially when there are very real and very destructive hackers out here.

For me too. When I heard term hacking in relation to pprograming, it always meant "unmaintennable mess full of dirty tricks holding together with duck tape". Not positive.

It's heavily context-dependent for me. Based on the situation, I'd expect it to be:

- A network intrusion

- A cool, clever piece of programming, without any other expectation of quality besides "it works"

- A "clever" (in a bad way), ugly, and (hopefully) temporary mess, done knowingly because of time constraints

- A program, usually put together quickly, to do a specific job

"Hacked into" would imply the first meaning, the others could be differentiated with further adjectives "clean", "dirty", "ugly", "cool", "quick", etc. Whether it's positive or negative really depends on the situation.

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