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So you "just need a hacker", huh?

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Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#61
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? If a product is good and investors are convinced it has a market, they'll invest. Otherwise I'll need to move on to something more compelling. That's no reason not to try. Insisting on an identified market before starting on something would eradicate a whole lot of University research.

"Why?" Because a great product is not the same thing as a great company. Investors don't invest in a good product, they invest in great people. Look at any VC or angel webpage and you'll see what I mean. Here is a quote from YC: "The people in your group are what matter most to us" And btw. University research is for finding out how the world works, business is about making money. There is a big difference between th…

wouldn't it be safe to assume that great people make great products?

Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't start coding something before you'd fleshed out a design, right? So why would you start designing something before you identified the market for it? Marketing is the social component of design, and you need brilliant marketing before you can create that brilliant product.

I would say you don't need brilliant marketing before you can make a product. Brilliant marketing can maximize the money you make off an idea, but you can make a great product with a small market. 37signals is a great example. They build products for them, since they know what they want. Of course, this doesn't work in a lot of situations. People who don't know how to write software need software too. To start a star…

I think that 37signals is the wrong example to pick here, they are where they are because of great marketing. There are loads of sites that do ajaxified to-do lists, a good hacker could probably code up their ta-da lists in a weekend. The reason they are popular is because they have attitide and great marketing skill. Just look at the number of submissions to YC news from their blog.

And no ROR has nothing to do with this - you could implement their site in Cobol if you wanted to and the average customer wouldn't know the difference.

Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#63
post #44

This would be better if the half that consists of mere insults was replaced with some ideas. There's a lot more you could say about this phenomenon, like why it happens, and what the solution might be. Once again the top story is an embarrassment to News.YC. And unfortunately it is mostly the recently arrived users who voted it up. Maybe it's inevitable that I'll have to turn on some form of vote weighting.

The link itself maybe an embarrassment, but the discussions surrounding it on YC are somewhat less emotional and pretty interesting; and they do touch upon the reasons why it happens (particularly the thread started by mixmax)

I noticed that too. It's like stone soup. Still, chicken soup would be better.

Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#64
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why?" Because a great product is not the same thing as a great company. Investors don't invest in a good product, they invest in great people. Look at any VC or angel webpage and you'll see what I mean. Here is a quote from YC: "The people in your group are what matter most to us" And btw. University research is for finding out how the world works, business is about making money. There is a big difference between th…

wouldn't it be safe to assume that great people make great products?

Well, great product people make great products. But if they don't have great marketing people nobody will know.

Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just might want to make sure you have some people interested in buying your "great product" too.

Why? If a product is good and investors are convinced it has a market, they'll invest. Otherwise I'll need to move on to something more compelling. That's no reason not to try. Insisting on an identified market before starting on something would eradicate a whole lot of University research.

>If a product is good and investors are convinced it has a market, they'll invest.

The business world is littered with great products with no markets. And, as dot bomb showed us, investors don't have a clue. My advice would be to arm yourself with market knowledge, and not rely on investors.

>Insisting on an identified market before starting on something would eradicate a whole lot of University research.

That's why a whole lot of University research gets grants from taxpayers - nobody is willing to fork over any dough for most of it.

Seriously, are you trolling?

Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#66
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? If a product is good and investors are convinced it has a market, they'll invest. Otherwise I'll need to move on to something more compelling. That's no reason not to try. Insisting on an identified market before starting on something would eradicate a whole lot of University research.

"Why?" Because a great product is not the same thing as a great company. Investors don't invest in a good product, they invest in great people. Look at any VC or angel webpage and you'll see what I mean. Here is a quote from YC: "The people in your group are what matter most to us" And btw. University research is for finding out how the world works, business is about making money. There is a big difference between th…

Investors don't invest in a good product, they invest in great people

How are they quantifying great people if they are new? School? GPA? Fraternity? What is this VC metric based upon?

How can you not judge a founder based upon the product of their efforts if it is not good?

Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#67
post #44

This would be better if the half that consists of mere insults was replaced with some ideas. There's a lot more you could say about this phenomenon, like why it happens, and what the solution might be. Once again the top story is an embarrassment to News.YC. And unfortunately it is mostly the recently arrived users who voted it up. Maybe it's inevitable that I'll have to turn on some form of vote weighting.

You made me feel bad for LOLing at the article. :(

Regardless of his feelings on solutions and causes, it's not like an Internet rant is going to change post-industrial work relations in developed countries. Certainly the people at fault will never read it.

Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't start coding something before you'd fleshed out a design, right? So why would you start designing something before you identified the market for it? Marketing is the social component of design, and you need brilliant marketing before you can create that brilliant product.

Not start coding before you fleshed out the design? Not design until you've identified a market? Sounds like a recipe for never getting anything done. That might be the proper way to tackle things when you have a big upfront costs, but generally for software you can just start coding on things you find useful and interesting. If others are interested, great, you've got a company. If not you just have a useful product…

How can you create a useful product if you haven't identified the use?

Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#69
Someone (aswanson?) posted a question I thought was really good, and was replying to with the following. But when I hit "Add Comment", it seemed the post was deleted in the meantime. I'm going to put my reply up anyway 'cause I spent 5 minutes writing it :)

The question was: how did the situation get this way, with creative and knowledgeable people being told what to do by often clueless managers and MBAs, who have no particular expertise? It seems irrational and it's not obvious why the world would work this way.

Jerry Weinberg, who was one of the first few computer programmers in the world and later became famous as a writer, was asked this once. He said that the first few generations of programmers (up to 1970 or so) were arrogant towards customers, businesspeople, and managers. Programmers were so scarce, and computing itself so unfamiliar and scary, that programmers expected and were given a kind of godlike deference, which they abused. After a while, customers got angry about the fact that they didn't have a say, were treated like idiots, and given stuff that didn't work very well. Eventually, Weinberg said, this led to a backlash whereby managerial control was imposed on programmers. The effects of this backlash persist today.

I don't claim that this is the only answer to the question, but it sounds like a piece of the puzzle, at least in the software business. The thing about the backlash is that it also failed, leading to the irrational situation the original questioner described.

Perhaps the current generation of entrepreneur hackers can be seen in this context, as programmers who have creative control, but also really care about building what customers want.

Re: So you "just need a hacker", huh?

#70
post #44

This would be better if the half that consists of mere insults was replaced with some ideas. There's a lot more you could say about this phenomenon, like why it happens, and what the solution might be. Once again the top story is an embarrassment to News.YC. And unfortunately it is mostly the recently arrived users who voted it up. Maybe it's inevitable that I'll have to turn on some form of vote weighting.

you should check this out http://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=carpal. clearly carpal has some issues other than business guys. imo he needs attention sooo bad that 80% of his posts are somehow about someone attacking a product or a group of people. carpal get a life man and please if you cannot add to our intelligence do not take away from our precious and scarce time. and yes i am a business guy with 0 programming skills and i would never want to work with you even if that meant my startup would never come to life and you were paying me to work on it.
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