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Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

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Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#61

Post by goodcanadian »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #56
goodcanadian wrote: post #49

While I would have liked to find a source other than the Cato institute for it ( https://www.cato.org/blog/trump-pursues-air-traffic-control-... ): The airlines are for it, the key labor union is for it, aviation experts are for it, and the second-largest nation on earth did it. Canada privatized its system in 1996, and today the nonprofit Nav Canada is on the leading edge of ATC efficiency and innovation.

Ah, yes, Cato Institute, that paragon of unbiased, reality-based thought. /s

Indeed . . . that is why I would have preferred another source. I have read very similar things from better sources, but I was not able to find them, today.

EDIT: Here is one from the Economist from last year describing NAV Canada in favourable terms as compared to the FAA.: http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/2170347...

And the Wall Street Journal (paywalled): https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-canadian-air-traffic-contro...

And the Financial Post (part of Canada's National Post): http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/u-s-lo...

Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#62

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

linkregister wrote: post #51
kevinburke wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The New York metropolitan area is the single largest aviation market in the United States. Last year, there were nearly 33 million domestic origin and destination passengers that came to and from the three major New York airports (LaGuardia, Kennedy and Newark). Nearly 60% of the total delays endured by these passengers are a result of today’s inefficient air traffic control, among the highest in the nation." http:/…

I recommend you explain what benefit a transfer to private administration would offer, because the article doesn't actually make any statement about what would improve. According to the article, which does not cite any study or even interview a single official or anyone from the airlines, there are two obstacles posed by the current "inefficient" system: 1) Antiquated technology, and 2) insufficient staffing levels.…

>if the limits on staffing and equipment procurement are imposed by Congress, then it might be better for a private organization to simply raise rates on airlines to account for the increased costs.

Except the Airlines are the ones who would staff the board of the proposed non-profit, so that won't happen.

Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#63

Post by tssva »

d0lph wrote: post #15
mmanfrin wrote: post #8

Why . I don't get this at all. Why privatize? What is the benefit? All I see this doing is decreasing safety.

Private organizations are more efficient than governmental ones. Ideally the way they are managed/regulated will remain the same. It would be really neat to see some innovation here as well, with governmental agencies there really isn't an incentive to break the status quo. edit: If you're downvoting at least comment with why you think this isn't the case

Over the last 30 years I have worked for or with for profit corporations, government agencies and the type of non-profit government formed corporation being discussed here. In general I haven't found for profit corporations to be intrinsically more efficient than government agencies of the same scope of mission. In fact many have been less efficient than the government agencies I have worked with. And many of the least efficient places have been the government established non-profit corporations. Take a look at the USPS, Amtrak, FDIC, or PBGC for examples.

Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#64

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

treebeard901 wrote: post #60
ericfrederich wrote: post #3

My guess is that he has some personal vendetta against them for something that happened causing him to be delayed 5 minutes on his private jet.

The personal vendetta, while probably true on some level, seems too easy of an answer. This is one of many privatization initiatives this administration is going to take. The focus initially will be to find government run agencies that can be profitable in the private sector. Think in terms of toll roads/bridges for infrastructure, air traffic control and student loans to name a few. Whether or not if privatization i…

> How well has democracy worked in Russia since that happened?

It's worked great for the oligarchs! I honestly think the Republican party sees that as the ideal outcome: create a strong kleptocratic class that can use their wealth to perpetuate Republican control.

Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#65

Post by mullen »

oh_sigh wrote: post #59
mullen wrote: post #14

> Donald Trump on Monday unveiled his proposal to hand over control of the U.S. air-traffic control system to a non-profit corporation, calling the current system an antiquated mess that doesn’t work and wastes money. Did someone point out to this idiot that we are having a string of years where there are no deaths in domestic commercial travel. Whatever is happening in the US Traffic System appears to be working rea…

Maybe you're the idiot, if you think that passenger fatalities is the only metric that matters(note: it matters a lot!) How can you know how well the US ATC is operating if you don't know how much money they spend? If they spent 10x what they currently do(but still had no passenger fatalities), would you say everything is great?

The average person can reasonably afford to buy a plane ticket to travel across the US. Right now, the odds of them dying is really low. In fact, so low that driving to the airport puts them in more danger than flying across the country.

We can take that system and throw it out and see if we can change it with zero guarantee of success to save all of $5 or maybe $10 (Just a guess). I don't know about you, but I am happy with the current system and it's costs.

Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#66

Post by kwhitefoot »

mmirate wrote: post #43
kem wrote: post #25

A monolithic private institution doesn't inspire confidence in me any more than a monolithic public one. I don't see the purpose in switching one for the other, and would probably rather see it run by the government. If it was replacing the current system with one where you had 12 different companies competing with one another, maybe so but I don't really see the benefit in what I'm reading. But I don't feel strongly…

> A monolithic private institution doesn't inspire confidence in me any more than a monolithic public one. I don't see the purpose in switching one for the other, and would probably rather see it run by the government. Indeed; this is why almost all "let's privatize X " initiatives are ultimately pointless (or perhaps even counterproductive). They merely shift the monopoly-holder from public-sector to private-sector,…

In some circumstances

> the private sector's legendary efficiency advantage

is in fact:

  the private sector's _mythical_ efficiency advantage

Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#67

Post by goodcanadian »

bearcobra wrote: post #58

Outside of NavCanada, does anyone know if there are any other private entities that manage ATC?

From the Economist (http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/2170347...):

Over the past couple of decades more than 50 countries, including Australia, Britain, Canada and New Zealand, have privatised (or at least “commercialised”) their ATC services, . . .

Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#68

Post by kevinburke »

linkregister wrote: post #51
kevinburke wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The New York metropolitan area is the single largest aviation market in the United States. Last year, there were nearly 33 million domestic origin and destination passengers that came to and from the three major New York airports (LaGuardia, Kennedy and Newark). Nearly 60% of the total delays endured by these passengers are a result of today’s inefficient air traffic control, among the highest in the nation." http:/…

I recommend you explain what benefit a transfer to private administration would offer, because the article doesn't actually make any statement about what would improve. According to the article, which does not cite any study or even interview a single official or anyone from the airlines, there are two obstacles posed by the current "inefficient" system: 1) Antiquated technology, and 2) insufficient staffing levels.…

The parent comment asked what the benefits could be, since deaths seem low. I listed some potential benefits, written by someone who used to work in NYC air traffic control. The article says the FAA doesn't have the experience or expertise to manage an ATC upgrade.

I don't have a position on what would be the most effective way to get there. I am guessing more funding, either public or private, would lead to an improvement.

Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#69

Post by kevinburke »

cuckcuckspruce wrote: post #12
mmanfrin wrote: post #8

Why . I don't get this at all. Why privatize? What is the benefit? All I see this doing is decreasing safety.

Simple. This is a union-busting move. This would squash the National Air Trafic Controllers Association[1] as a public union. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Air_Traffic_Controlle...

I don't think Republicans would mind busting a union but that is far from the primary motivation.

Re: Trump announces plans to privatize US air traffic control system

#70

Post by bryondowd »

chrisbennet wrote: post #18

Doesn't a lot of the expense of government run programs come from the retirement benefits? The government assumes the risk (pension) instead of the employee (401K). As an aside, according to a controller I know, a lot of FAA employees are retiring soon and at about the same time. A large cohort of controllers were hired about the same time to replace the fired striking PATCO [1] controllers in the early 80's. [1] PAT…

Yep, lots of the current controllers are retiring right now, and even more have their 20 years and could retire before the mandatory retirement age of 56 if things change in a way that makes it not in their best interest to keep working.

I'm currently part of a hiring wave meant to replace those controllers. Around 1400 people are being hired in my bid alone. ATC has been my get-out-of-software plan, but depending how things shake out, if the compensation doesn't stay the same for newcomers, I expect I'll have to run back to software. I'm a little concerned that this new private entity will compensate the old timers to keep them on and keep the union on board, and throw newcomers under the bus for the sake of 'efficiency', which would keep things running short-term, and leave them with a sudden lack of talent in five or ten years. But I'm not an expert on how these things turn out, just highly cynical about a private corp's ability to think long-term.

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