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How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

bostonreview.net

61–70 of 105 posts

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#61
post #55

The article says top 20 percent consists of the households making $112,000 or more. Many of those families live in places like New York or California where $112,000 is not much. The families I know in New York City making around $2-300,000 live paycheck to paycheck in tiny, old rented apartments. Both parents work until 6-8 PM, they barely see their kids except in weekends. They spent the first decade or so after col…

Families making $200,000-300,000 lives paycheck to paycheck?

Sorry, but just what in the everliving fuck are they doing with that money? Burning it for warmth?

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#62
... likely to run into the solid wall of upper middle-class resistance, even those that simply require a slightly higher tax bill...

What are the unintended consequences of this slightly higher tax bill? Does this writer not know of the Laffer Curve? The top 20% already pay the vast majority of income taxes in the United States And now he suggests they should pay more? Why not instead reprioritize spending, including cuts to programs that are proven not to work?

The "War on Poverty" has not resulted in any significant change to US poverty rates yet money is still spent on those programs. Farm subsidies, social security and Medicare and Medicaid fraud and abuse and the defense department's propensity to bleed money-- there are many areas that can and should be addressed before simply raising taxes.

And what about college cost inflation? College expenses have risen more dramatically than health costs. Could the influx of easy public money and loans have something to do with it? Look at the cartel's controlling textbooks and scientific journals! We lose our collective minds over Uber surge pricing but say nothing about $200 textbooks that were often written by professors working for public institutions. In universities you have countless Provosts and vice Provosts who pretty much add no value. You have administrators who simply administer other administrators. It's a racket of which the mafia could be proud. Adjunct professors barely scrape by while the "Director of Residental Student Diverisity Affairs" makes six figures. Many on the left like to complain about CEO pay yet let academia have a free pass to hand out titles and six figure non-teaching jobs out like candy -- all on the backs of students and indirectly, the taxpayer. If we want to expand educational access then the universities ought to start with themselves: cut the waste, lower the price. But they won't do that; the "liberals" in charge of universities actually perpetuate the educational inequality they purport to oppose. It certainly isn't conservatives in the Ivy League that maintain legacy based admissions or $80,000 per year price tags.

The problem isn't that taxes are too low, it's that government does a bad job when it comes to budgeting and fiscal policy.

I am not opposed to "left wing" proposals as much as I am opposed to "raising taxes and redistributing wealth" as the only means presented as the way to accomplish those proposals.

Zero-based budgeting would be a good start. Then every year the government can better allocate money rather than just continually adding to whatever the previous year's expenditures happen to have been.

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I would love to live in a more equal society, history shows time and again that government efforts to redistribute wealth mostly destroy it. We should try to devise systems that prevent power from centralizing in the first place.

> efforts to redistribute wealth mostly destroy it Not sure what you mean by this. Isn't the goal here to destroy a lot of wealth? Wealth is a relative term - someone with $1B is not rich because 1B is an inherently big number, they are rich because $1B is orders of magnitudes greater than what most people will make in their lifetimes. Making people all have about the same in the bank other would destroy wealth.

While relative wealth definitely has value (mostly because it enables you to afford the labor of others), wealth itself is not fundamentally relative.

- Almost everyone today (in western, developed nations) has more purchasing power than almost everyone did 100 years ago. Doesn't that mean that everyone is more wealthy?

- As new technology is developed, Alice's wealth depends less on Bob's poverty, because she can rely more on automation and less on Bob's labor. This might cause tremendous problems for Bob, but that's besides the point. Bob can now (if he manages to prosper) become immeasurably wealthy without reducing Alice's wealth in the least.

- You could make millions of dollars selling farm equipment. It seems clear that, in doing this, you are accumulating wealth. But it is not clear that your success needs to be at anyone's expense. Presumably your customers are buying your wares because your product helps them build wealth too. If the market is saturated, your success might come at the expense of your competitor's, but that seems like a different phenomenon from the idea of relative wealth that you've described above.

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#64
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author isn't making any of the arguments you attribute to him. If rich people had to choose between redistribution and the guillotine, sure, then redistribution would be in their best interest. But that's not the dilemma rich people face, and there is no indication there will be a violent uprising anytime soon. Activists get ignored, unless they anger the wrong people and then they get squashed. The majority of A…

The author isn't making any of the arguments you attribute to him. If rich people had to choose between redistribution and the guillotine, sure, then redistribution would be in their best interest. But that's not the dilemma rich people face, and there is no indication there will be a violent uprising anytime soon. Activists get ignored, unless they anger the wrong people and they get squashed. The majority of Americ…

I agree that Ferguson protests and BLM and so on are reactions to power and injustice. Are they going to change the arc of history? Doesn't look like it. Trump may present himself as an anti-establishment figure, but his appointments show he's totally beholden to establishment figures. His policy proposals so far are the standard GOP spiel. Sure, people are angry but does anything change?

> If you are driving through a bad part of town and get mugged,

Rich people don't drive through bad neighborhoods. People who live in gated communities don't get hit by stray bullets from gang wars. I don't think appealing to the self-interest of rich people works here. They're already looking out for themselves, and the trendline is pretty clear.

> Immigrants will always be poor.

Look, are you're really going to argue that immigrants having bad teeth is the natural order of things, and not a consequence of the availability and affordability of dental care? (And what about the dental health of Nascar fans? Not class related either, I presume!)

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#65
post #52

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. ... Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me." Now replace the socialist, trade unionist, and Jews from this famous quote and insert your income percentile to see what's going on here. I said this during the occupy movement. It's not the 1%, not the 2%, not the 10%, not even the 20% that need to be worr…

> What people who promote class warfare desire is financial results without work or risk because that's how they perceive those with money attained it. You're talking about billionaire promoters of class warfare like Thomas Friedman or Jared Kushner right?

Yes, exactly. The opposite end of the spectrum, but the same principle.

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#66
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I would love to live in a more equal society, history shows time and again that government efforts to redistribute wealth mostly destroy it. We should try to devise systems that prevent power from centralizing in the first place.

History shows no such thing. Making college free (or at least easily affordable) is highly redistributive and highly accretive. See also: public transportation, affordable childcare, and so. You're not just wrong when you say that government efforts to redistribute wealth mostly destroy it. The opposite is true: funding the commons through progressive taxation makes modern society possible. Redistribution is at the a…

An interesting perspective, feels cynical to me. I fully support progressive taxation, free education, public transit, affordable health care and so-forth. I would argue that government is a service provider. We can't all be expected to maintain our own defense, so we do it together. When we are provided these services that are equal to or greater than the value that we pay for them, we are richer for it. There is no redistribution there. The more wealth you have the more valuable the local police force is to you. The wealthy need educated employees. Government is able to organize childcare services that keep low income workers in the workforce, that helps everyone.

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#67
post #61
post #55

The article says top 20 percent consists of the households making $112,000 or more. Many of those families live in places like New York or California where $112,000 is not much. The families I know in New York City making around $2-300,000 live paycheck to paycheck in tiny, old rented apartments. Both parents work until 6-8 PM, they barely see their kids except in weekends. They spent the first decade or so after col…

Families making $200,000-300,000 lives paycheck to paycheck? Sorry, but just what in the everliving fuck are they doing with that money? Burning it for warmth?

Paying interest payments it seems.

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#68
post #6

It is only natural that the people in possession of resources are reluctant to share them; that is also the case in most countries, in my experience. The weird thing about the U.S. is that so many below-median-income folks are right-wing -- the very ones that would benefit from increased wealth distribution. I guess part of the explanation comes from the mirage that is The American Dream. In some sense a lot of us To…

> I guess part of the explanation comes from the mirage that is The American Dream No, it's much simpler than that: blacks, gays, guns, abortion.

I would beg you to look for a much more nuanced understanding of the people whom you oppose politically.

Attempting to reduce all the of the great Conservative/Libertarian arguments for not wanting top-down tyrannical centralized high-tax government that takes away liberty to instead being single-mindedly rooted in racism, homophobia, etc. may make you feel better that your opponents are irrational emotionally-driven zealots -- but you've so missed the mark on comprehending the people who oppose you that you're only helping to further the enormous divide of understanding that we have in politics today.

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#69
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author isn't making any of the arguments you attribute to him. If rich people had to choose between redistribution and the guillotine, sure, then redistribution would be in their best interest. But that's not the dilemma rich people face, and there is no indication there will be a violent uprising anytime soon. Activists get ignored, unless they anger the wrong people and then they get squashed. The majority of A…

Are you saying that the wealthy regularly perform acts deliberately calculated to instill apathy in the general populace? If this is true then it is very interesting and I would like some examples.

Deliberately? Probably not. But all of consumer culture, 5 minute news cycle, pop culture, and economic pressure makes it very hard for people get politically involved.

Most people have to struggle just to survive. The middle class worries about living in the right neighborhood with the right schools, so their children can have a good life. Nobody can afford to get involved in their community, or with local politics.

Noam Chomsky has written a number of interesting articles about apathy and alienation. I highly recommend The Utopia of Rules by David Graeber. Not directly about apathy in society, but related.

Re: How America's Top 20 Percent Perpetuates Inequality

#70
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess part of the explanation comes from the mirage that is The American Dream No, it's much simpler than that: blacks, gays, guns, abortion.

I would beg you to look for a much more nuanced understanding of the people whom you oppose politically. Attempting to reduce all the of the great Conservative/Libertarian arguments for not wanting top-down tyrannical centralized high-tax government that takes away liberty to instead being single-mindedly rooted in racism, homophobia, etc. may make you feel better that your opponents are irrational emotionally-driven…

I would beg you to try to understand that the whole 'Conservative/Democrat' divide as far as I can see from some distance is utterly ridiculous in the eyes of a good chunk of the world.

If gays/guns/racism and abortion were not hot political buttons in the United States the Republicans would likely never win an election.

Libertarians have to all practical intents and purposes no representation in congress that is able to move the needle so can be safely ignored. It's just the rich making themselves richer, one group going about that slightly more nuanced than the other.

And if the libertarians would be represented in congress in numbers that could move the needle the rich would be making themselves richer even quicker.

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