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Why do so few people major in computer science?

danwang.co

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#61

Post by ArialAnemone »

sidlls wrote: post #31
romanovcode wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

> Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, Yes, that's quite likely. Diversity is important in this field, as in any other, for a number of reasons. The two most important are that is the brings diversity of thought, which should always be welcome in a supposedly fact-based intellectual field, and that it is a signal that we as a society value ourselves and our peers well enough to not treat a…

But you're not promoting "diversity of thought", you're promoting BS signals. How is it promoting facts when you're searching for superficial signs of diversity?

You're promoting a form of corporate doublethink where filling out bubbles of sex and race is automatically analogous with some platonic ideal where every single variant of human being had this amazing differential that'd waiting to be exploited.

But instead it seems a very cynical game where the superficiality of diversity conquers honest evaluation of needs and ability.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#62

Post by Spooky23 »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #28
atmosx wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention "useful". Imagine nurses going on strike. Now compare that to lawyers, programmers or investment bankers going on strike ... no one cares.

What happens when IT for a hospital goes on strike?

Same thing that you do when nurses go on strike. You hire a bunch of scabs and muddle through.

The difference is that IT usually sucks so much that nobody notices.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#63

Post by gnodar »

simonsarris wrote: post #11

Slight note about Dan Wang picking 2005: That was the peak of CS degrees awarded because it's 4/5 years after the height of the dot-com bubble. So the upward bump in the mid-2000's is somewhat explainable as an anomaly. I think his point 1 is underrated. CS degrees are flat because aptitude is flat. You can compare CS degrees to other degrees over time at nsf.gov: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/#/report…

Interesting that in the nsf data it shows that during the 2000-2004 time frame the number of CS grads rose and then peaked in 2004, while the number of CS women grads during the same time frame was flat, and then dropped in 2004.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#64

Post by ArialAnemone »

NotQuantum wrote: post #39
romanovcode wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

Counter point: You can reason that women wouldn't go into other fields like plumbing, or construction because those are also male dominated. The biggest distinction is that Computer Science can be a path climb the socioeconomic ladder. > I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Well when you think about the reach of software in the modern world, it can influence…

You're not making a convincing argument. Why are the capabilities of plumbers to mentally map various causes and effects and points of failure not subject to the same forces of thought differentials you claim?

My cynicism says that diversity is a result of baizou, not any actual accounting of some magic spread where different and useful ranges of thought are spread in equal proportion mapping to a species of bureaucratic classification of diversity as noted in sex and skin color and nationality.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#65

Post by kxyvr »

david-cako wrote: post #57
kxyvr wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top level comment states, "Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness." I came to say that this is factually incorrect. Now, my experience does come from STEM, so I don't know about non-STEM fields. However, to be clear, I was responding to th…

Top level, My statement is unclear, but the "udacity/anyone can be a computer whiz!" "koding with karlie" vibe that is pushed is very different than anything else in the world. Software is unique in that it IS something that anyone with the minimum amount of the right talents can learn to do well on their own -- that's just the nature of the internet and how software is distributed/documented. It ISN'T, however, some…

Candidly, there are plenty of people who delude themselves that they are well suited to being a doctor or lawyer. That said, they're prestige positions, so there are cultural reasons for doing so.

On the STEM front, a quick search immediately pulls organizations like National Girls Collaborative Project:

http://ngcproject.org/

Girl Scouts:

https://www.girlscouts.org/en/about-girl-scouts/girl-scouts-...

Girlstart:

http://www.girlstart.org/

and Girls Inc.:

http://www.girlsinc.org/news/editorials/inspiring-girls-expl...

that provide either focus or programs for outreach in STEM more broadly than computer science. Now, I don't know the exact numbers for whether programs for pushing for women in CS are greater in number than STEM. That would be interesting to know precisely. Mostly, my contention is that, yes, there are organizations that are attempting to encourage young women to entering STEM fields beyond software.

Now, at a city level where I live, I have noticed anecdotally that there's been a push for software based businesses from the local government. Though it's difficult to know for sure, my opinion of this push toward software as opposed to engineering is because the apparent investment in creating a new software company is lower than the investment in creating an engineering company. Engineering tends to be a more regulated field and often requires more expensive equipment. As such, I believe the city is interested in businesses that could have a large economic impact for a relatively low amount of investment. Now, is this so easy? No and I believe my city government's actions are somewhat misguided. That said, I doubt that where I live is unique. I do believe there's a national push for software based businesses because the apparent investment is low and the payoff is high. Along with that will be programs to encourage underrepresented people to enter the field and these programs will be visible. But, again, I contend they're not unique.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#66

Post by Spooky23 »

romanovcode wrote: post #16
david-cako wrote: post #14

A better question is "why do we care". Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness. The major also doesn't fix the thought process. You either have it or you don't.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

My brother in law was doing an outreach to female high school athletes to get them to sign up for the civil service exam for his fire department.

Technology is also unique in that between the different over-represented minority cultures, people with poor social adjustment and tolerance for "boys will be boys" creates an actively hostile culture for women.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#67

Post by ArialAnemone »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #53
_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #2

Image.

After talking to dozens of women and men, girls and boys trying to convince them to go into computer science, the reason they told me is the (wrong) image they have of programing: sitting alone for 8h a day in front of a computer. Looks like the those who voted me down had more success in getting more people into CS.

It's not merely sitting down.

It's seeing the code monkeys of life being manipulated by people who are adept at manipulating humans and getting higher status and pay for it.

Think of a lot of technical positions in the military. They get bossed around by non-technical people.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#68

Post by [deleted] »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #53
_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #2

Image.

After talking to dozens of women and men, girls and boys trying to convince them to go into computer science, the reason they told me is the (wrong) image they have of programing: sitting alone for 8h a day in front of a computer. Looks like the those who voted me down had more success in getting more people into CS.

[deleted]

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#69

Post by [deleted] »

romanovcode wrote: post #16
david-cako wrote: post #14

A better question is "why do we care". Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness. The major also doesn't fix the thought process. You either have it or you don't.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

[deleted]

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#70

Post by mattnewton »

ritchiea wrote: post #20
xxSparkleSxx wrote: post #12

I think the market is just way over saturated. Hiring practices for developers point to just that. I mentioned in a different thread how simole it is for my travel-nurse of a sister to get a new job (her stints around the Bay Area paid ~100k and she only has 2 years of experience). Developers jump through hoop after hoop for employment, this wouldn't happen if they were in demand like a nurse. The market is just resp…

I'm a freelancer/run-my-own small dev consultancy and I pretty much never jump through hoops. The level of demand doesn't create the hoops. Some combination of needing to create the appearance of "only hiring the best of the best of the best just like everyone else" & fear of a bad hire creates the hoops. I don't have trouble finding work and often need to bring on additional help. The hoops are cultural.

Bad hires are totally worth the hoops to avoid. The problem I have seen is no one knows which hoops are useful and which are harmful and they do all the superstitions they have read about. I don't know if anyone has figured out a methodology for solving that.
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