Live data from Hacker News

What does $100 Ether mean?

medium.com

61–70 of 117 posts

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think I'm missing about ETH? Insufficient political radicalism?

Crypto is a hard space. Most people's startups have lost them money compared to what they would have made had they just bought btc and held. Other's have left the btc ship with predictions of failure (Falkvinge, Hearn) and their doom predictions haven't yet and perhaps may not come true. I feel that many the great mind is lost to boredom with boring old BTC, the crypto you can actually buy things with. This makes me…

[deleted]

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#62
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is a voluntary network of independent miners a central authority?

The top 5 ETH pools control about 75% of the hash rate. Buterin (for whom I have lots of respect) and others have routinely commented that centralization is a problem in both PoW and PoS systems. In both systems, the problem is "the rich get richer" (as PoW is essentially "proof of stake" in the form of expensive hardware and electricity). But more to the point, look at what happened with ETH and ETC. The Ethereum Fo…

> And my point was that if you look at ETH/ETC, the market is saying that they feel more comfortable with a known, trusted authority (i.e. small group of developers with trademarks and a conference schedule) than they do with true democratized first principles of immutable code.

But the fork wasn't a referendum on the governance model of Ethereum. If you picked ETC, you get your liberterian utopia - but you also get a chain where someone made off with 10% of the Ether supply.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trustless" is a terrible meme, as the term is misleading and the implementation of the concept is impossible. The truth is: There is no cloud, just other people's computers. Smart contracts can make trust relationships explicit. By using a blockchain system, you entrust a network - which you may have no control over - with application state. If you rely on such a network, you indirectly also rely on the network infr…

I agree that our terminology is often terrible. "Smart contract" could well have been "conditional payment" which for most purposes is clearer. Do you know about http://erights.org ? They are good - great - on terminology.

I agree "smart contract" is a poor term, but they're way more than "conditional payment" - you can do a lot of things with them that have nothing to do with paying money.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#64
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is simply incorrect. The gas limits do make smart contracts decidable. It is a mathematical fact. Bringing the idea that things have gone wrong with Ethereum as proof to the contrary is completely absurd. Things have also gone wrong with Bitcoin [1]. Is it undecidable now too? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox

> This comment is simply incorrect. The gas limits do make smart contracts decidable. It is a mathematical fact. This line of reasoning does not help me write better code, and does not address the parent's concerns. Using this argument, I can say that every single program I will ever run in my lifetime is also decidable, since eventually the computer I'm using to run it will stop working. This of course does not mean…

Sure it does - the marvelous thing about a turing-complete virtual machine is that you can write a decidable language that compiles to EVM bytecode.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#65
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top 5 ETH pools control about 75% of the hash rate. Buterin (for whom I have lots of respect) and others have routinely commented that centralization is a problem in both PoW and PoS systems. In both systems, the problem is "the rich get richer" (as PoW is essentially "proof of stake" in the form of expensive hardware and electricity). But more to the point, look at what happened with ETH and ETC. The Ethereum Fo…

> And my point was that if you look at ETH/ETC, the market is saying that they feel more comfortable with a known, trusted authority (i.e. small group of developers with trademarks and a conference schedule) than they do with true democratized first principles of immutable code. But the fork wasn't a referendum on the governance model of Ethereum. If you picked ETC, you get your liberterian utopia - but you also get…

[deleted]

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#66
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top 5 ETH pools control about 75% of the hash rate. Buterin (for whom I have lots of respect) and others have routinely commented that centralization is a problem in both PoW and PoS systems. In both systems, the problem is "the rich get richer" (as PoW is essentially "proof of stake" in the form of expensive hardware and electricity). But more to the point, look at what happened with ETH and ETC. The Ethereum Fo…

> And my point was that if you look at ETH/ETC, the market is saying that they feel more comfortable with a known, trusted authority (i.e. small group of developers with trademarks and a conference schedule) than they do with true democratized first principles of immutable code. But the fork wasn't a referendum on the governance model of Ethereum. If you picked ETC, you get your liberterian utopia - but you also get…

Pre-fork ETH owners didn't necessarily have to pick one over the other. Miners had to allocate their resources between the two chains (but could split their bets, and some did so). Pre-fork ETH owners ended up with both chains in a kind of 2-for-1 special.

Every market transaction since then has been a referendum on which model the market prefers. Ultimately, the market price dictates a LOT of down-stream behaviors, e.g. some miners will switch back and forth between ETH and ETC (and other alt-coins) based on hourly yield.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#67
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top 5 ETH pools control about 75% of the hash rate. Buterin (for whom I have lots of respect) and others have routinely commented that centralization is a problem in both PoW and PoS systems. In both systems, the problem is "the rich get richer" (as PoW is essentially "proof of stake" in the form of expensive hardware and electricity). But more to the point, look at what happened with ETH and ETC. The Ethereum Fo…

> And my point was that if you look at ETH/ETC, the market is saying that they feel more comfortable with a known, trusted authority (i.e. small group of developers with trademarks and a conference schedule) than they do with true democratized first principles of immutable code. But the fork wasn't a referendum on the governance model of Ethereum. If you picked ETC, you get your liberterian utopia - but you also get…

[deleted]

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#68
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"3. You can buy things with bitcoin. What can you buy with ETH? If you can't buy anything with a currency, it's not a currency." This is the one that really sticks out to me. What do people need any of this for? I think they did a fine job pitching the value of smart contract / blockchain technology. But why do I, or a bank, or society need anything beyond those? The tech may be useful, but what 99% of these discussi…

> What do people need any of this for? I can write an app for managing a business, fund it, and then walk away forever. Ethereum is a platform for hosting autonomous corporations.

Is that something we want? Because it doesn't sound like something I want.

I like that there's some level of the human element in the personal transactions I conduct with businesses, and I don't think I'm alone given how hackneyed the joke about bypassing automated phone support systems has become. If something falls outside company procedures there's usually someone who can help me out by bending the rules or deferring to a superior who can make an exception, or at the very least explain why it can't be done. Empathy plays a role.

If the entire business transaction is automated sure, maybe the more mundane everyday processes run smoother, but if there's an exception that wasn't accounted for you're shit out of luck.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I knew about Bitcoin when it was $20. You could buy now and dump it when it hits $900 - $1000. It will. As far as I am concerned, the current iteration of *coin are just pump and dump basically.

What do you think about the idea that people in failed states with unstable currencies would want to store their wealth in Bitcoin? Or the idea that people would want to use it for international money transfers? "Just pump and dump" implies you don't believe legitimate uses underlie the coin.

I think there are legitimate uses, I don't have faith in the organizations behind them.

Both Bitcoin and Ethereum have had fundamental differences in the orgs and fractured. Currencies isn't exactly like open-source orgs where fracturing the foundation is perfectly fine.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Vinay has great insights into gun control, the hexayurt, and some other topics, however, on ETH, I think he's totally in error. I'd be happy to livestream chat him about it.

What do you think I'm missing about ETH? Insufficient political radicalism?

Disclaiming the misunderstood "marketcaps:" Crypto currency market cap descriptions are comedic. As soon as you actually try and sell your coins into the market, you see that you've eaten through the order book and driven the whole market down 10 percent. With thin markets like cryptocurrencies, if you market sell a million of coins, you actually make quite a large dent in the order book. Thus, a disclaimer should be included that crypto market caps are very not like the market caps you're used to seeing in the stock market.

The blockchain is not a way to "arrange a lot of computers to do the same thing." it literally is just a chain of blocks. Moving them is the nodes job, and you can sibil attack the nodes if you wish. ALso, when machines drop offline or get hacked, the network notices quite dearly, as I'm sure you noticed when your ETH network was non functional a couple times this year right? You guys [formed a choir and forgot the chorus] when you rolled back the dao transactions...

Please don't use the highest ever seen price to describe the block reward for mining, its usually not $500 every twelve seconds right?

"A smart contract is a tool for changing the world." So far it seems they've only changed thew world for the worse? Is there a successful smart contract yet? Is the net gain going to exceed the loss from those poor dev's that learned how easy it is for a program to do something you didn't think it would, and now all the money is gone. Maybe, or maybe you could use safer languages for the contracts.

"Systems like Bitcoin or Ethereum have many, many implementations. As long as they can all smoothly work together (and bugs at this level are, indeed, very rare) the whole thing works like a single machine. That nobody owns."

It is surely owned. The chain itself exists on drives that are owned, the nodes and their bandwidth is owned, bitcoin has *many implementations? hmm. If no one owns it, who are these people voting for BIP's? Seems like ownership to me. The coins, the nodes, the miners are owned, and they lobby.

"Nobody owns the internet, and we get along just fine." Some citizens don't have this view, or the freedom to see it.

"[btc]The mining thing rapidly centralized in the hands of a relatively small number of miners, " You are avoiding that in ETH how?

"The ideas behind Bitcoin certainly ran into trouble as they encountered regulation" avoiding that in ETH how?

"And this is the core vision of the Ethereum community: a world in which two people can deal directly with each other, and the systems that support their interaction don’t distort the message as they carry out our instructions. You say what you want, and the machines carry your instructions to the person on the other end of the deal. Directness is the real fruit of disintermediation: people dealing as they would face-to-face, but with the benefit of a network."

Uh. I think the darknets are doing this at scale already?

I don't think the libertarians will like this: "I went to Norway recently, and I suggested at a talk I did that we could move Scandinavia very quickly to experiments involving a blockchain for payments, fully supported by their government, on the basis that taxation could be built directly into the platforms they might use (it’s unlikely, today, the Norwegian government could collect taxes in Ether not Kroner!)." When the Russians take out your internet, I guess you just won't have commerce for a while.

Your arguments for a blockchain seem to support BTC better than they do ETH. Your arguments for peer to peer commerce seem to support the darknet markets more than they do ETH. You hand wave oracles with your "internet of agreements" You will end up with human judges. Oracles solution on its own is worth more than all crypto currently.

"I think Ether at $100 means that so many people believe in the world they think Ethereum will create, that it is becoming inevitable." Dogecoin appeared pretty inevitable for a while.

Smart contracts are seriously entirely useless unless you solve oracles. If you can't trust your oracle, you can't trust your contract. Period. No hand waving.

Thus. If you want to build crypto products that are useful, like shapeshift, timestamp, and lots of other things, great! Don't think that it is ETH that you need to make that happen. Also, what exactly do I need ETH for if I want to use the ETH network for all its dreamed majesty? Isn't all I need gas, and how correlated is gas likely to be with ETH? You have humans setting that relationship no? ETH is where smart people go to throw away their BTC gains.

That being said, you're a smart dude and I like lots of what you've worked on. If you have to trust a human, you'll need a human judge. If you want to not have judges, you need to not need to trust humans. If you dont' want to trust humans, than you must determine the state of the "real world" for your "smart contracts" to make decisions. That thing that measures the real world is an Oracle. Since your oracle can be cheated, or ddos'd or make a mistake, you're back to human judges again.

Until you can create a digital oracle that is trustworthy and can translate real world events into data to be plugged into logic in your smart contract, you are wasting your time. You will, end up with judges. Hell, the DAO didn't even get to fail at the oracle level, it failed before it even got to make its first "smart investment."

All the talk of smart contracts is merely hand waving away the oracle problem. All the talk of blockchains is sadly also hand waving of lots of issues as well, which is why we've really only seen one successful one, and some of it's users nearly have a gun to their head, so it's quite compelling for them to eat the risks and make it work.

Thus the more brain power and money power that go into things that are useful instead of smart contracts with no oracles, the happier I'll be.

Post reply on HN