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N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#61

Post by mtgx »

nyolfen wrote: post #23
jancsika wrote: post #17

We can't sensibly discuss this story here unless we know which definition of "collect" is being used in the story. Normal definition: collect. For example: "Even collected all the data going to and from Bob's house by putting a splitter on the cable." NSA's definition: not that, as cited in various stories sourced by the Snowden leaks from the Guardian. I won't attempt to define exactly how the NSA defines "collect"…

their definition (via secret interpretation of USSID 18, according to Bill Binney[1]) is roughly that it's only collected if they actually go back and look at it at some point down the line. your web browsing history (or whatever) sitting on a hard drive in utah doesn't fall under this definition until they look at it. [1] https://youtu.be/r9-3K3rkPRE

Why are judges only focusing on the "search" part of the Fourth Amendment and not on the "seizure" part as well?

That kind of action should count as a seizure, no?

> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#62

Post by andreyf »

jwtadvice wrote: post #42
elevenfist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really a secret interpretation, I and a lot of people I knew noticed the same thing over a decade ago by reading the privacy policies of tech companies. Reading the data requires a warrant. Recording the data doesn't.

The important aspect for the NSA's interpretation is that algorithms can look at and process the data and create metadata or synopsis information from it. Having an intelligence system ingest this metadata and synopsis is not considered "collection". Essentially, if it can be automated, it isn't collection. If a human gets pulled into the loop to look at data, that's when it's collected. However, a human could be sho…

And what will you need to show to obtain said rubber stamp? This is not secret, either:

Search for "how FISA works" here: http://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/files...

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#64

Post by guscost »

nyolfen wrote: post #23
jancsika wrote: post #17

We can't sensibly discuss this story here unless we know which definition of "collect" is being used in the story. Normal definition: collect. For example: "Even collected all the data going to and from Bob's house by putting a splitter on the cable." NSA's definition: not that, as cited in various stories sourced by the Snowden leaks from the Guardian. I won't attempt to define exactly how the NSA defines "collect"…

their definition (via secret interpretation of USSID 18, according to Bill Binney[1]) is roughly that it's only collected if they actually go back and look at it at some point down the line. your web browsing history (or whatever) sitting on a hard drive in utah doesn't fall under this definition until they look at it. [1] https://youtu.be/r9-3K3rkPRE

Ah, the old "Schrodinger Defense".

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#65

Post by lern_too_spel »

Jerry2 wrote: post #60
lern_too_spel wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the main points of the Five Eyes agreement (originally BRUSA) is that the member states have a "no-spy agreement" with each other. That's why you see French leaders in the leaks but not heads of state of Canada or the UK. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/an-exclusive-club-the-fi... The rumor that they spy on each other and share that data is not substantiated in any leaks and specifically goes against one o…

> The rumor that they spy on each other and share that data is not substantiated in any leaks and specifically goes against one of the main planks, making it an especially strange rumor. Huh? GCHQ has been spying on Americans for a long time. Here's the latest example: [0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spie...

They were spying on Russians.

"The alleged conversations were picked up by chance as part of routine surveillance of Russian intelligence assets."

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#66

Post by hengheng »

nostromo wrote: post #27
jancsika wrote: post #17

We can't sensibly discuss this story here unless we know which definition of "collect" is being used in the story. Normal definition: collect. For example: "Even collected all the data going to and from Bob's house by putting a splitter on the cable." NSA's definition: not that, as cited in various stories sourced by the Snowden leaks from the Guardian. I won't attempt to define exactly how the NSA defines "collect"…

The Times really did a crap job of explaining that. The headline is so unequivocal but a close reading of the article implies the opposite is true.

Indeed, congratulations on their great PR work.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#67

Post by koenigdavidmj »

jancsika wrote: post #17

We can't sensibly discuss this story here unless we know which definition of "collect" is being used in the story. Normal definition: collect. For example: "Even collected all the data going to and from Bob's house by putting a splitter on the cable." NSA's definition: not that, as cited in various stories sourced by the Snowden leaks from the Guardian. I won't attempt to define exactly how the NSA defines "collect"…

This isn't the only time something silly like that is in law. In New York, a loaded gun is any gun that you possess at the same time as ammunition suitable for it.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#68

Post by c517402 »

andreyf wrote: post #51
infogulch wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So all it would take is for them to change their policy at any point in the future, even only for a few minutes, and instantly "collect" all current and historical emails from Americans.

No. Collection, unlike retention, of US Persons' data is governed via court decisions, not NSA policy. If Congress doesn't like these retention / collection interpretation of their laws, they can clarify them in statute at any time. But they haven't and probably won't, because "retain everything for judicially approved retroactive collection" is incredibly useful e.g. when a bomb goes off at a marathon and a judge OK…

So, they archive the data and promise not to collect it (look at it) unless they have a national security letter signed by a judge^H^H^H^H^H drinking buddy from the office.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#70

Post by sneak »

Baeocystin wrote: post #3

Things that I do not for one second believe: this. Maybe this one particular program, under one particular name, sure. But overall? I just don't see it. I am not saying this cynically, I just don't. Data collection is too easy, database queries too simple.

As pointed out above, they also use a different definition of "collect". In real terms, they collect everything, but they only claim to collect it when they access it on their own storage systems. It is utmost dishonesty, both by the government and this terrible excuse for a newspaper printing their lies.
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