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Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

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Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#61
post #3

> The process is important because what's getting washed away during sleep are waste proteins that are toxic to brain cells, Nedergaard says. Evolution found a nice little optimum in sleep that works pretty well- use less energy during a time of the day that isn't a very efficient time to be awake while also cleaning out the brain. This could be interesting for future research. Could we find chemical means to remove…

There's an interesting concept. I wonder what the trade-off would be. How much efficiency would it cost to clean the brain continually rather than in a dedicated sleep cycle? Would it even be possible to process these toxins while maintaining consciousness? I'm sure there could be huge benefits for many modern lifestyles to trade heavily on reaction speed and/or lightly on IQ for 50% more waking hours. Or even 25% mo…

I think from the evolutionary perspective, being active during a time of low fitness gets punished. So if there was an adaption that tended to paralyze something when it was dark out, that gets selected for even though obviously given optimal decisions not being paralyzed is better. Which, if you think about it, is kind of what is happening with sleep.

So I imagine the trade-off isn't as severe as someone might guess; it's definitely theoretically possible to run entirely without sleep with the right hardware. For example, lets say sleep was fundamental to cognition. If you were willing to have redundant hardware, you could run two brains and just take turns sleeping them [1]. So that probably gives something of an upper-bound to efficiency.

The problem is that a lot of stuff is getting built on top of these things. Scheduled downtime is getting used by other adaptions. Things like handling 'garbage collection' or 'waste collection' inline get shunted away to the downtime to improve response times. This keeps happening. Over short periods there are going to be plenty of cases where being paralyzed isn't optimal. What if something shows in the night? Long term though if the creature is continually staying active when its at disadvantage that's really bad. So additional penalties accrue to force the issue.

Then the original 'purpose/benefit' starts getting lost. Things get messed up. Enough adaptions end up taking advantage of the fact that the downtime existed that now there is so much benefit to it for reasons unrelated to its initial creation that it starts becoming worth doing even at times where light levels aren't an issue.

So now when you try to mess with sleep, you're not just messing with one little thing. You're messing with a whole bunch of different entangled processes. One to reduce activity during periods where the sensors suck. Another to prevent continued activity when the sensors suck. Another that handles waste. Another that starts up ML algorithms during the downtime to take advantage of the freed-up processing. Another that does data backup. The muscles use the downtime to start construction. Basically all over the body everyone is starting to get to work.

It's like that tradeoff problem that gwern talks about with using notropics, where each one improves one thing but causes problems in other areas. So basically, it isn't a question of whether or not you need sleep from a theoretical process perspective. You don't, if you had a different design. But now sleep isn't just the reduce activity time because its night adaption. It's all tied up in everything else.

You shorten the amount you sleep? You die younger, because you cancelled the bodies maintenance period.

[1]: Which dolphins are kind of doing.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#62
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems... extreme, to me. Completely ignoring a thing because of an imperfection could narrow one's depth of experience.

It's mostly involuntary by now. My BS detectors have been trained on that term my whole life. It's in the same category in my brain as "homeopathic".

"homeopathic" is a specific term that denotes a specific discredited (pseudo)scientific concept, that has been analyzed.

"toxin" is an general term that encompasses many established entities as well as phony ones. When you see "toxin", you can ask "which toxin are you referring to?"

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#63

It's interesting that in almost every sleep related article I've read on HN, the overwhelming majority of people who respond about their personal life say that they hate getting up 'early'-for various definitions of early. Surely there are programmers who like getting up early?

Perhaps they aren't posting on message boards during the workday.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#64

This should worry all the people taking adderall and modafinil to be more productive.

Why?

because you're taking on significant health risks ("toxin" buildup as mentioned here among other things) by not sleeping, health risks that normally wouldn't be there because of the natural fatigue and lethargy that would force an unmedicated person (however dedicated) to drift off

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#65
post #52

A related and quite recent piece of research - Stimulating toxin cleanup via brain stimulation using pulsed light. Has been used to treat Alzheimer symptoms in mice models. Last I heard was being fast-tracked to humans. http://news.mit.edu/2016/visual-stimulation-treatment-alzhei... "This treatment appears to work by inducing brain waves known as gamma oscillations, which the researchers discovered help the brain sup…

I wonder if a laptop/phone screen is capable of producing this specific frequency of pulsed light.. Edit: FWIW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaiiJsfgP58

most displays still being 60hz i don't think it'll work well. But a 120hz or 240hz should be able to do it pretty well I'd think.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#66
post #48

Random thought: Could dreams be a result of the processing of toxins? In the same way some "toxins" cause us to hallucinate etc. so too could these toxins, as a side affect of processing?

I read somewhere in the last 10 years that dreams were practice for real life situations. After hearing that, when I awake in the middle of a dream, I always test that hypothesis, and sure enough, sometimes is quite plausible.

Most of my dreams involve a lot of supernatural events and scenarios that'd be quite unlikely in real life. Am I preparing for a day soon where magic, superpowers and other super natural events become real?

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#67

It's interesting that in almost every sleep related article I've read on HN, the overwhelming majority of people who respond about their personal life say that they hate getting up 'early'-for various definitions of early. Surely there are programmers who like getting up early?

When I was younger I preferred staying up late and working and it allowed me to get a lot done. As I've gotten older and now have a family, things have flipped and now I much prefer to start my work day early, usually around 6am. This gives me more family time in the afternoon/evenings.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#68

It's interesting that in almost every sleep related article I've read on HN, the overwhelming majority of people who respond about their personal life say that they hate getting up 'early'-for various definitions of early. Surely there are programmers who like getting up early?

I like getting up early, where early is defined as 6am to 6:30am.
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