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Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

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Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#61

Post by boomboomsubban »

Asooka wrote: post #6
secfirstmd wrote: post #2

Just give a Linux desktop which is a smooth as macOS.

Oh god please no. I would really prefer that we stop the experimentation and just go back to implementing the standard desktop. Linux got its success by being a Unix clone, down to copying the syscall numbers. We should mimic that on desktop by just copying Windows, rather than chasing unproven weird ideas. OSX succeeds not because it's quirky, but because it is backed by a company with massive resources. And even OS…

ReactOS is an open source clone of Windows, designed to be binary compatible with Windows.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#62

Post by rlpb »

ramy_d wrote: post #44
lorenzhs wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you baffled? It's no secret that Nvidia's linux drivers cause problems and that Intel's tend to be very good. For the record, I had a really bad time with Nvidia hardware and their drivers on Linux, and the whole Optimus thing that they pushed 5-ish years ago. Never had a problem with Intel graphics, except that power management (RC6) support in Sandy Bridge chips took a while to mature.

I'm baffled because I had the exact opposite experience and this is really bad advice.

Ubuntu developer here. I favor Intel drivers (for non-gaming) for the reasons given. It's certainly much more straightforward driver-wise. And I can recall a number of bugs that impacted Nvidia only, where one cause was that they have proprietary drivers.

> and this is really bad advice

I think that's a huge stretch. Disagree all you like from your own experience, but I believe that the statement "Intel drivers work more smoothly than the proprietary Nvidia drivers" matches the current consensus.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#63

Post by braveo »

zamalek wrote: post #42
criddell wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OSX succeeds not because it's quirky, but because it is backed by a company with massive resources. If deep pockets was all it took to make an OS succeed, Windows Phone wouldn't be dead. On the desktop, OSX, Windows, and most Linux variants are all good enough. What matters is application support. For my job, 50% of the applications I use run on Linux, 75% run on OSX (natively), and 100% work on Windows. Can you gu…

> 100% work on Windows Make that 110% if you include Visual Studio. The degree of polish that Visual Studio has just isn't available anywhere else. At some point early this year I was considering Linux+VSCode. VS2017, with F5-to-Docker debug, launched and everything else looks like a giant pain in the ass once again. The Azure integration is anticompetitive but, wow, is it also so much better than the alternative. XC…

Windows and Linux have different philosophies. Whereas Windows likes the monolothic approach, unix likes the small utility approach.

This is why vim is a hell of a lot more useful to me on linux than on windows. In Linux, I actually prefer vim over sublime. In windows, I use sublime over vim.

It's not simply a matter of polish, the environments are completely different, and therefore the tools that are successful on the platforms are completely different.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#64

Post by AdmiralAsshat »

ramy_d wrote: post #39
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear about your wife's bad experience. Never heard of the company, but based on the specs of laptops being offered from the website, I'd hazard a guess that the discrete GPU is probably the source of many of your woes. Linux has always been a second-class citizen for video cards, particularly since NVIDIA's binary blobs fly in the face of the FOSS spirit. If she doesn't do intense graphical editing or gaming…

It baffles me that your recommendation is to get off Nvidia hardware + restricted drivers and use an Intel integrated GPU. Have you had such bad time with Nvidia hardware and their drivers?

Personally? No. But as stated, my primary laptop has an integrated GPU. Intel drivers tend to have support in the kernel so everything just works out-of-the-box. It's one of the reasons I tore the Broadcomm wifi card that came with the XPS13 and replaced it with an Intel 7265.

I am not sure whether the parent was using the nouveau drivers or the NVIDIA blobs. It's besides the point either way: GPU's on Linux are notoriously finicky, no matter your stack.

The recommendation to go with an integrated GPU is strictly pragmatic. I personally am a tinkerer and am willing to live with a little bit of pain as far as functionality or configuration for ideological reasons if it means supporting a FOSS distribution. But I can't make that same assumption for the parent's wife, and if she wants something that "just works" because she's unwilling to tolerate that level of pain, then an integrated GPU might be the way to go.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#65

Post by zamalek »

reitanqild wrote: post #55
zamalek wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 100% work on Windows Make that 110% if you include Visual Studio. The degree of polish that Visual Studio has just isn't available anywhere else. At some point early this year I was considering Linux+VSCode. VS2017, with F5-to-Docker debug, launched and everything else looks like a giant pain in the ass once again. The Azure integration is anticompetitive but, wow, is it also so much better than the alternative. XC…

The degree of polish that Visual Studio has just isn't available anywhere else. I like Windows more than before but people saying VS is fantastic are starting to annoy me. My VS crashed 3 times today (!). This comes on top of almost not having any refactoring support unless you buy ReSharper. I was really excited to get to try .Net three months ago. Now I'm really looking forward to go back to Java and Netbeans (even…

ReSharper? I typically run lightweight in terms of extensions and I've heard woes from others that don't.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#66

Post by zamalek »

braveo wrote: post #63
zamalek wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 100% work on Windows Make that 110% if you include Visual Studio. The degree of polish that Visual Studio has just isn't available anywhere else. At some point early this year I was considering Linux+VSCode. VS2017, with F5-to-Docker debug, launched and everything else looks like a giant pain in the ass once again. The Azure integration is anticompetitive but, wow, is it also so much better than the alternative. XC…

Windows and Linux have different philosophies. Whereas Windows likes the monolothic approach, unix likes the small utility approach. This is why vim is a hell of a lot more useful to me on linux than on windows. In Linux, I actually prefer vim over sublime. In windows, I use sublime over vim. It's not simply a matter of polish, the environments are completely different, and therefore the tools that are successful on…

And there is the problem. To reiterate, given a half decent editor (which was historically lacking in Windows), I've found that I don't prefer one over the other - they are both part of the same philosophy: getting shit done and writing good software.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#67

Post by quirkafleeg »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #23

We bought a ZaReason Linux laptop for my wife last year and it has really reset my expectations for what I can expect of a Linux desktop. It works mostly. But things break somewhat regularly and it needs a happy reboot at least once every two days. In short, by 2017 standards it's a buggy piece of shit. For the average computer user who does not want a Mac, I would recommend Windows over Ubuntu at this point. It's mo…

> things break somewhat regularly [...] reboot at least once every two days [...] it's a buggy piece of shit [...] 10-15 years behind Mac OSX or Windows [...] make something that doesn't suck

Your comment would be more interesting and sound less like a troll without this.

What are the "things" you're talking about and how do they "break"?

What are the ways Ubuntu is at the standard of 15 year old versions of Windows or OSX?

AIUI Linux is actually pretty well-known for its stability. On desktop I never reboot (Xubuntu) unless there's an update that requires it, and even then it's usually several days later, due to having so much running I don't want to close.

If it "sucked" and was so buggy it required rebooting every two days then I think we'd hear more about it from its tens of millions of users, not all of whom are "your geeky Linux user", as you put it.

> My wife doesn't care what window manager is chosen

I don't care about window managers either. I don't have any of the problems you're talking about.

> little annoying bugs

For example? Actual bugs, or just things you personally don't happen to like or that don't behave like Windows?

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#68

Post by criddell »

zamalek wrote: post #42
criddell wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OSX succeeds not because it's quirky, but because it is backed by a company with massive resources. If deep pockets was all it took to make an OS succeed, Windows Phone wouldn't be dead. On the desktop, OSX, Windows, and most Linux variants are all good enough. What matters is application support. For my job, 50% of the applications I use run on Linux, 75% run on OSX (natively), and 100% work on Windows. Can you gu…

> 100% work on Windows Make that 110% if you include Visual Studio. The degree of polish that Visual Studio has just isn't available anywhere else. At some point early this year I was considering Linux+VSCode. VS2017, with F5-to-Docker debug, launched and everything else looks like a giant pain in the ass once again. The Azure integration is anticompetitive but, wow, is it also so much better than the alternative. XC…

> Where I'm going with this is that a good IDE begets a quality application.

I wish this were true. A great development environment (integrated or not) will get you to the finish line faster, but it doesn't automatically produce quality. Have you downloaded anything from the Windows Store lately?

You (and many others) don't like XCode, yet developers using it have produced some marvelous software on macOS. For example, I think The Omni Group folks have made some applications that work great, look great, and are a joy to use.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#69

Post by ramy_d »

rlpb wrote: post #62
ramy_d wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm baffled because I had the exact opposite experience and this is really bad advice.

Ubuntu developer here. I favor Intel drivers (for non-gaming) for the reasons given. It's certainly much more straightforward driver-wise. And I can recall a number of bugs that impacted Nvidia only, where one cause was that they have proprietary drivers. > and this is really bad advice I think that's a huge stretch. Disagree all you like from your own experience, but I believe that the statement "Intel drivers work…

I don't care. This is bad advice because it's armchair troubleshooting.

Oh you have a problem? Stop doing this thing I don't like.

Yay everyone, we did it.

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