Live data from Hacker News

A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

arxiv.org

61–70 of 78 posts

Re: A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

#61
post #53

"Several of the Great Programmer’s universes will feature another Great Programmer who programs another Big Computer to run all possible universes. Obviously, there are infinite chains of Great Programmers. If our own universe allowed for enough storage, enough time, and fault-free computing, then you could be one of them." Loved that line. I do not understand this main point of the article. Perhaps someone can expla…

>"Several of the Great Programmer’s universes will feature another Great Programmer who programs another Big Computer to run all possible universes. Obviously, there are infinite chains of Great Programmers."

This is comparable to the metaphor of Indra's Net, as described by Alan Watts:

>"Imagine a multidimensional spider's web in the early morning covered with dew drops. And every dew drop contains the reflection of all the other dew drops. And, in each reflected dew drop, the reflections of all the other dew drops in that reflection. And so ad infinitum. That is the Buddhist conception of the universe in an image."

Re: A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

#62
post #53

"Several of the Great Programmer’s universes will feature another Great Programmer who programs another Big Computer to run all possible universes. Obviously, there are infinite chains of Great Programmers. If our own universe allowed for enough storage, enough time, and fault-free computing, then you could be one of them." Loved that line. I do not understand this main point of the article. Perhaps someone can expla…

Probably need a definition of expensive here.

I'm taking a shot in the dark, but our state is "finite" and given the current state, there are infinitely many universes which are computable from the current state?

Re: A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

#63

In this vein, I strongly recommend Scott Aaronson's Why Philosophers Should Care About Computational Complexity http://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/philos.pdf

Or, for that matter his "Quantum Computing since Democritus" book. He covers some deep stuff like the presence of free will from a perspective of computational complexity theory and that is a fascinating read.

Re: A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

#64
post #51

I wonder who supplied the great programmer with the Turing machine in the first place. What separates Turing machines from mincing machines in that context? And an important premise is an implied equivalence of an infinite sequence of states with infinite states. "Before" the world creation there is not "time" per se. So how is the Turing machine, where sequence plays a pivotal role, supposed to work in that exo-time…

Aristotele used to call this primum movens.

> Since every change has a cause, the origin of the chain of causes and effects must be a cause without cause (first cause), which is a primary source of motion without motion.

The thought is logical, but there are also cosmological theories that do not presuppose the existence of a "first unmoved mover".

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_gravity

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Rovelli

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_cyclic_cosmology

In the oscillating models, the universe follows infinite, or indefinite, self-sustaining cycles.

The time may emerge only in a thermodynamic or statistical context.

A sequence of events could "simply" only imply a correlation of adjacent quantum energy states.

Re: A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

#66
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every simulator of any kind can be described as "compute". The question is, can the simulated environment itself support a new level of compute? And if so, how independent is that compute? Redstone in minecraft supports compute, but is not fully independent. That is, the "laws of physics" of minecraft include special rules for redstone. RNA polymerase is fully independent, the "laws of physics" do not have special ru…

I am well aware. The simulation runs on a turing machine..a computer. That's different from turing completeness. Turing-completeness means a turing machine can be built inside of the simulation. Fully independent? Nothing is fully independent of the universe it resides in. Cheating doesnt mean much. Cheating is making AI from the top-down if thats the case. Because its the extreme opposite end of emergence. And plent…

We are talking past each other because we are focused on slightly different things.

"Fully independent? Nothing is fully independent of the universe it resides in."

Indeed. But there are levels of independence. That is, do the laws of the simulation: 1) merely provide an environment in which there can be turing completeness. or 2) is some aspect of that turing completeness explicit in those laws. Again, redstone(2) vs RNA(1).

And in a similar vain, 3) is the world initialised with some low entropy state and merely lets that run. Or 4) is the simulator constantly randomly generating states?

If you can manage 1 and 3, that would be amazing. Anything less, might still be great, or nothing special. It will really depend on the exact nature of the simulation.

And I would wager that 1 and 3 can only be reached by simulating some sort of entropy flow that causes self-organisation + self-catalysation.

But maybe a much more compute rich universe as you seem to be planning (?) might work. You should surely try if you have ideas. My comments are by no means meant to discourage you!

---

Note that from the perspective of entropy, there are 4 levels of organisation:

a) direct, the structure is the end result of high entropy (for gravity this is globes)

b) indrect, the structure is caused by the flow, but are not the end result (for gravity this is disks, but meandering rivers, crystals or organic molecules are other examples)

c) self-catalysation, (by lack of better term) like indirect, but the structure grows more than linear because more structure creates more structure[1]

d) self-copying, like self-catalysation, but in discrete space/time steps

Somewhere after (c) you would get self selection of the faster/better copiers ... which might lead to what falls squarely in a recognisable definition of life.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocatalytic_set

---

"But its a question of whether life is a product of information and computation, or a product of more specific principles. Who really knows."

That is an interesting saying. What would be more specific principles? And maybe looking at life from the perspective of information and computation is not the most useful?

(That is why I said turing completeness is not so important to focus on, most simulations like we are talking about here are trivially turing complete.)

"Who really knows" :) our universe is surely 1 and 3, and life is at least 3 emergent system steps away from its most fundamental laws.

Re: A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

#67
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Turing completeness is necessary for intelligent life." Sure, but it would be extremely difficult to write a simulator with "interesting feedback" that is not turing complete ... "In our universe, the speed of light is the speed of causality" In your simulation the step function is causality. I would not be too concerned if the simulator was not strict in conservation. As a matter of fact, the interesting parts of o…

Conversion between states means nothing if the states can multiply endlessly. There needs to be conservation to prevent "something for nothing."

There is quite some room between that and strict conservation of "energy".

Re: A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

#68
post #13
post #3

"More than 2000 years of European philosophy dealt with the distinction between body and soul. The Great Programmer does not care. ... From the view of the Great Programmer, though, such bitstring subpatterns may be entirely irrelevant. There is no need for Him to load them with “meaning”." Interesting points, especially to follow up the recent 'is matter conscious?' article on HN. Schmidhuber often seems to be more…

I find all of this really hard to take seriously when we work on the assumption that the design of the universe could be understood by a human. Why would something so small relative to the whole assume that its thoughts were high enough to comprehend the entire universe? I love philosophy, but let's actually spend our time and energy asking questions that do have meaning, because any small meaning to us is more impor…

> Why would something so small relative to the whole assume that its thoughts were high enough to comprehend the entire universe?

Completely unintuitive, isn't it? Empirically, we happen to be very good on it.

Re: A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

#69
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like is the operative word. Also: https://imgur.com/a/Bg9WH

Sure just as you are like me but different or i am like a monkey but different. We are all simulating a reality.

I agree that computation is the best metaphor we have to date, for everything.

Re: A Computer Scientist’s View of Life, the Universe, and Everything (1999)

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am well aware. The simulation runs on a turing machine..a computer. That's different from turing completeness. Turing-completeness means a turing machine can be built inside of the simulation. Fully independent? Nothing is fully independent of the universe it resides in. Cheating doesnt mean much. Cheating is making AI from the top-down if thats the case. Because its the extreme opposite end of emergence. And plent…

We are talking past each other because we are focused on slightly different things. "Fully independent? Nothing is fully independent of the universe it resides in." Indeed. But there are levels of independence. That is, do the laws of the simulation: 1) merely provide an environment in which there can be turing completeness. or 2) is some aspect of that turing completeness explicit in those laws. Again, redstone(2) v…

Thanks for that link. And the breakdown. I agree with everything you say here. You have a great handle on the task at hand. Perhaps you'd like to exchange ideas / collaborate? Can you shoot me an email at andy at scrollto.com ?
Post reply on HN