Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 359 posts

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#61

Post by jacquesm »

pdkl95 wrote: post #59
notliketherest wrote: post #11

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it. Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to…

> pursue a model by which their software is more or less SaSS A tractor isn't a service. Fixing problems in goods after they were sold doesn't make the purchased product (the tractor) a service either. In general, "SaSS" (and "SaaS") is a useless buzzword. If you provide an application on a webpage that people can subscribe to, you're offering "service". If you're selling a tractor with automatic software updates, yo…

And to add to that: there are lots of examples of services that are only tacked on to a sold good in order to turn that sale into a permanent dependency of the buyer on the seller. And that's just plain abusive.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#62

Post by tmnvix »

ebbv wrote: post #53
tbyehl wrote: post #47

I'm starting to wonder if these articles are driven by a PR firm paid by John Deere's competition. They're always about John Deere and only John Deere. Aside from the Motherboard / Vice article, they never provide any specifics about the maintenance or repair operations that farms are prevented from doing on their own. With the Vice article, 2 of the 3 things they mention are modifying the tractors to operate in ways…

I've had the same thought. It's such a niche issue and really it's incredibly standard for any kind of business hardware, which is what tractors are. Also nobody's being forced to buy new tractors, there's tons of old tractors still out and running and working every day. So why do these articles appear with such regularity? (To be clear I think that all software should be open source and vendors should charge for sup…

> Also nobody's being forced to buy new tractors, there's tons of old tractors still out and running and working every day.

There are also fewer every day.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#63

Post by bitwize »

X86BSD wrote: post #5
andrewchambers wrote: post #2

I don't like the idea that we have to pass laws to force companies to make a better product. Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this?

Liability laws are in dire need in the software industry. Security for instance would not be such an abysmal disaster if companies were held liable for the insecure garbage they are pumping out.

Indeed. No one should hire a programmer except that they be licensed and bonded, just like any other form of skilled labor.

Users of software developed by unlicensed programmers should also be held liable if their machines should be compromised and used in a botnet or other malicious activity. That means no Linux or, in your case, BSD.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#65

Post by VonGuard »

teuobk wrote: post #58
tbyehl wrote: post #47

I'm starting to wonder if these articles are driven by a PR firm paid by John Deere's competition. They're always about John Deere and only John Deere. Aside from the Motherboard / Vice article, they never provide any specifics about the maintenance or repair operations that farms are prevented from doing on their own. With the Vice article, 2 of the 3 things they mention are modifying the tractors to operate in ways…

Based on some poking around, it appears that the focus is mainly on John Deere because it's mainly John Deere imposing these software restrictions. Relevant thread on The Combine Forum (because that's a thing, apparently): http://www.thecombineforum.com/forums/31-technology/239314-w...

Yep.

That's also because their software is crazy advanced. Basically automates the whole plowing and such. Big market differentiator.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#66

Post by PhasmaFelis »

douche wrote: post #9

There's going to be a huge market in used pre-DRM heavy machinery. The purely mechanical/hydraulic versions of this stuff is virtually indestructible, with a little maintenance.

People buy software-controlled tractors in the first place because they really want the software functions. If purely mechanical versions could fill the same need, DRMed tractors would never have sold to begin with.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#67

Post by ebbv »

tmnvix wrote: post #62
ebbv wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had the same thought. It's such a niche issue and really it's incredibly standard for any kind of business hardware, which is what tractors are. Also nobody's being forced to buy new tractors, there's tons of old tractors still out and running and working every day. So why do these articles appear with such regularity? (To be clear I think that all software should be open source and vendors should charge for sup…

> Also nobody's being forced to buy new tractors, there's tons of old tractors still out and running and working every day. There are also fewer every day.

It's true but I would wager independent farmers are more likely to repair and keep old tractors around, or buy used when they do have to buy one.

I bet the biggest buyer of new tractors are the farming conglomerates, and I wonder if they're behind these articles. Trying to get a grass roots movement going to push John Deere to change these practices?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#68

Post by cmurf »

randomdata wrote: post #56
cmurf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a huge barrier to market entry effectively making for a natural monopoly. In farm equipment it's John Deere and Caterpillar and they don't have that much overlap product wise these days. If you go through the long list of farming equipment companies, they're all gone now. Defunct, or conglomeration.

> In farm equipment it's John Deere and Caterpillar Caterpillar? In agriculture? Do you mean Challenger (AGCO) or CLAAS, both of whom have used Caterpillar branding at points in the past? Although neither of them have recently. Curiously, you're the second person to have mentioned Caterpillar being involved in agriculture in this discussion. Which surprises me. They are not a player at all, outside of some overlap us…

Yes they explicitly target that market. http://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry.html

Agriculture is a broad market, not limited to plows and combines which are more specific and that's where JD is at. Like I said, not much overlap.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#69

Post by mabbo »

It's not just the farmer paying for this: it's everyone who eats food.

The time wasted is lost productivity. The extra fees just for a software unlock is lost money. The farmer has to either charge more, or go out of business sooner. Either way, the cost of food rises.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#70

Post by PhasmaFelis »

notliketherest wrote: post #11

When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it. Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to…

> When we buy a piece of software, we own and "physically" posses a binary which we feel we can rightly take apart, modify, and mess with it because we view it as analogous to owning a toaster or stereo in the physical world. It's in our home, we can touch it, and we in essence control it.

In what way does any of that not apply to owning a tractor?

> Now the same is never said for software as a service. We buy subscriptions to services all the time but don't demand an ability to modify or control the software.

Yes we do! People have been pissed about DRM, hardware locks, and access restrictions in commercial products for about as long as they've existed. It's a big issue and getting bigger every year. Locked smartphones, unremovable Windows telemetry, Garadget bricking some guy's gizmo over a bad review. You've been on Hacker News for over a year, how can you possibly think that?

Post reply on HN