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Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

economist.com

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Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#61

Post by leggomylibro »

icelancer wrote: post #55
leggomylibro wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also true in Seattle. The "makerspaces" here are incapable of working with anything beyond PLA. There are some cool tool libraries, which can be useful for larger hardware projects, but there seems to be very little in the way of true hackerspaces. If you want to get into EE or circuitry in the US, there are plenty of good online resources, but you will be at a severe disadvantage to people living in parts of…

>This is also true in Seattle Especially with Metrix:Create completely abandoning hackerspacedom for blah structure. Extremely sad.

Metrix:Create...is that the place in Cap Hill with a laser cutter, poor lighting, unsupervised live-in children, a few tool drawers, a plastic mill, and a couple of 3D printers? Yeah, that place isn't even worth walking to when you're in the neighborhood. Surprised they're still in business.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#62

Post by Animats »

icelancer wrote: post #55
leggomylibro wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also true in Seattle. The "makerspaces" here are incapable of working with anything beyond PLA. There are some cool tool libraries, which can be useful for larger hardware projects, but there seems to be very little in the way of true hackerspaces. If you want to get into EE or circuitry in the US, there are plenty of good online resources, but you will be at a severe disadvantage to people living in parts of…

>This is also true in Seattle Especially with Metrix:Create completely abandoning hackerspacedom for blah structure. Extremely sad.

Their web site: "As of October 2016, we are focusing our resources on design, fabrication, consultation, and workshops. We are no longer offering an open lab work space, and we do not provide tools for rental/check-out or in-store use. Consultations are by appointment only." There's nothing wrong with running a prototype-making shop, but most prototype-making shops have much more capability than those guys.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#63

Post by nabla9 »

chaostheory wrote: post #21
finid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you demand that your people bow and obey, and imprison people like A1 WW, this goes against promoting and nurturing innovation Although the Japanese were not imprisoning people "like A1 WW", they were bowing and obeying when they ushered the era of consumer electronics a few decades ago. Now it's the turn of the Chinese.

Yes the Japanese are polite and formal and like China there's a huge pressure to conform. However imo there's one key difference: the Japanese obsession with kaizen- constant improvement and striving for perfection. It may not override outward conformity for appearances sake, but imo there are enough Japanese who are madly in love and obsessed with the idea of attempting to achieve acme, that they're willing to risk…

This is stereotyping at it's finest.

China, even the Han-culture is not a monolith. There are huge cultural differences in China. One billion people are not 'one china' in anywhere else than communist propaganda.

There are differences in business culture, management hierarchy, language, food (what people in the west think as Chinese food is Cantonese food) and relationship with authority. People in eastern cities are culturally more individualistic and take more initiative than they do in other parts of China. That's something that foreign companies with subsidiaries in China have noticed.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#64

Post by blacksmythe »

gjkood wrote: post #33
ChuckMcM wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading Bunny's "The Hardware Hacker" and it does make me want to visit. What I find particularly fascinating is that it provides powerful evidence that 'open' is innovative and 'closed' is stifling. Early on in the tech business everything was 'open'. The IBM PC published the source code to the BIOS in its technical manual, Intel and Motorola documented all of the options on their chips and how to program…

Actually, buying Bunnie's "The Essential Guide to Electronics in Shenzhen" [1] was what motivated me to make the trip. I was motivated enough to spent 7+ months learning basic Mandarin before making the trip. Not to mention the WIRED videos on Shenzhen featuring Bunnie [2]. Learning the Mandarin number system made negotiating prices a breeze. I just got the Hardware Hacker a month or so ago. Great read. [1] https://w…

  >> I was motivated enough to spent 7+ months learning basic Mandarin
That is impressive.

I have tried learning Mandarin, and found that in the same amount of time that you could be communicating (at a very basic level) in another language (even one considered 'hard' like Japanese), with Mandarin I am still trying to get tones right.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#65

Post by jimmywanger »

chaostheory wrote: post #21
finid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you demand that your people bow and obey, and imprison people like A1 WW, this goes against promoting and nurturing innovation Although the Japanese were not imprisoning people "like A1 WW", they were bowing and obeying when they ushered the era of consumer electronics a few decades ago. Now it's the turn of the Chinese.

Yes the Japanese are polite and formal and like China there's a huge pressure to conform. However imo there's one key difference: the Japanese obsession with kaizen- constant improvement and striving for perfection. It may not override outward conformity for appearances sake, but imo there are enough Japanese who are madly in love and obsessed with the idea of attempting to achieve acme, that they're willing to risk…

> constant improvement and striving for perfection.

This happens in every culture when pressures are pushed upon it. For decades after WWII, Japanese goods and products were considered inferior and "just good enough", and specialized in cheap things that didn't really need to be high quality. External pressures (exports) forced more precision and rigor on them.

Same thing for China. Right now it manufactures many things for a low price to a low quality. Nobody really cares if a chew toy is to spec. Once things start mattering, like exporting for Apple, the cultural pressures start changing quickly.

Also, striving for perfection occurs in every culture. Look back at old Chinese teachers or masters of particular arts or culture. Simply attributing the way things are in certain areas during certain times to cultures is simplistic and naive. Sure, if the market pressures were there, China could manufacture goods to high tolerances. But there is no large market currently for extremely high quality mass market consumer goods, except for computers and cell phones, which China has locked up nicely.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#66

Post by gjkood »

blacksmythe wrote: post #64
gjkood wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, buying Bunnie's "The Essential Guide to Electronics in Shenzhen" [1] was what motivated me to make the trip. I was motivated enough to spent 7+ months learning basic Mandarin before making the trip. Not to mention the WIRED videos on Shenzhen featuring Bunnie [2]. Learning the Mandarin number system made negotiating prices a breeze. I just got the Hardware Hacker a month or so ago. Great read. [1] https://w…

>> I was motivated enough to spent 7+ months learning basic Mandarin That is impressive. I have tried learning Mandarin, and found that in the same amount of time that you could be communicating (at a very basic level) in another language (even one considered 'hard' like Japanese), with Mandarin I am still trying to get tones right.

I definitely did not learn it on my own or through self study.

I attended Mandarin classes at the San Jose Learning Center. (http://www.sanjoselearningcenter.com/mandarin.php)

A special shout-out to my fantastic instructor Larry Xue.

It is not easy but it has changed my life and outlook.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#67

Post by faragon »

Despite the politics, and crazy economics, China future looks amazing, because of the huge of human potential. If I were 20 years younger, and having the possibility of an interesting job in software programming, I would go to Shanghai or Shenzen.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#68

Post by chaostheory »

natvod wrote: post #59
chaostheory wrote: post #9

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

> When you demand that your people bow and obey, and imprison people like A1 WW, this goes against promoting and nurturing innovation This is a common misconception, especially by people who have never lived in China. Thinking political censorship means people are docile all spheres of life. Chinese people are actually much more prone to rant and fight over everyday injustices: shopkeeper ripped you off, denied entra…

To make it extremely clear if it wasn't already obvious, I'm Chinese and I've lived both on the mainland and in South East Asia.

> This is a common misconception, especially by people who have never lived in China. They just have to be careful not to publicly blame any politicians for the issue or try to organize some group activity to protest it.

You've contradicted yourself pretty quickly; you haven't disputed my main point: people on the mainland on a whole are not willing to rebel and dissent against people and ideas that are above them like the authorities or even their own parents - this translates to other parts of industry and major schools of thought. For example, one of the reasons the Internet has a decentralized architecture is because its designers didn't want to give the US government centralized control over it. Bickering with your peers over trivial things doesn't count, willing to question your boss, teacher, or someone higher in the food chain is what matters.

That said I'm not saying that things can't or will never change. I'm just pointing out the major obstacles to innovation on the mainland.

> Also, just to point out, in the West, the majority of people aren't exactly "rebelling against the status quo" and showing "opposition to the norm"

Not everyone dissents, but there's a large enough portion of the population that does to push innovation and progress.

> because they can march in a protest or sign a petition.

It's easy to make fun of it, but yeah this shows how ingrained rebellion and dissent is in our culture and accepted, which is one of the main foundations of innovation.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#69

Post by kirvyteo »

chaostheory wrote: post #9

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

First of all, it is a complex place. All big countries are.

Creating an original product/idea is different from innovating upon an existing one. So is Google not innovative as they did not invent internet search? ApplePay is less innovative because Alipay (handled USD660B in 2012) was started in 2004? Or Wechat is not innovative because whatsapp was there first?

I am not Chinese but we sell software in Asia. In a smaller box, they have to be more innovative because of all the crap rules they deal with like Great Firewall. Sure, many of the copies are of low quality and pitiful. However, similar to the hindi word - jugaad, everyday innovations are made using whatever is available. In many ways, they are more flexible than the Japanese who defer more to standard practices and hierarchy.

Eventually some made it better than the forerunners. Wechat started as a messaging app but has outstripped whatsapp in terms of applications. It is so tightly integrated in everyday activities, i.e people pay for their daily groceries, buy mcdonalds, it has voice messaging way before whatsapp introduced it, withdraw sent messages etc.

I feel that the culture is only antagonistic towards people who don't like the political status quo, not business. Didi (uber), DHL type of services are illegal at the beginning but gained legitimate status eventually because of its usefulness to the society. The propaganda is not helpful but I don't see it as any different from religious propaganda. If you can ignore it, you are fine. (Well, some people claimed religious people are less innovative, but that is another discussion)

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