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Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

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Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#61

Post by MichaelBurge »

throwaway729 wrote: post #59
fowlerpower wrote: post #40

This story is fascinating for tech people everywhere and we should all pay attention. We all have big dreams of starting our own company some day (I know do) and many of us work for big corporations that would rather we never go anywhere and work for as little as possible. (admittedly the markets are forcing them to pay us a lot but they aren't doing it out of good will). The outcome of this will teach us all very va…

> The outcome of this will teach us all very valuable lessons. Lesson #1: Don't steal. > I can't be the only one who is a little paranoid that if I start my own shit I'll be sued or that I may even be sued for some of the side projects I'm working on even though I've never taken any code or resources from my company. Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth. Assuming their acc…

> Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth

What is the clear benefit to denying rather than pleading the fifth? I know from Psychology that telling a jury to disregard information makes it seem more valuable and true, but that's more speculative than what you seem to have seen.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#62

Post by Animats »

Judge Alsup:

"If your guy is involved in criminal activity and has to have criminal lawyers of the caliber of these two gentlemen, who are the best, well, okay they got the best. But it’s a problem I can’t solve for you. And if you think I’m going to cut you some slack because you’re looking at—your guy is looking at jail time, no. They [Waymo] are going to get the benefit of their record. And if you don’t deny it—if all you do is come in and say, “We looked for the documents and can’t find them,” then the conclusion is they got a record that shows Mr. Levandowski took it, and maybe still has it. And he’s—he’s still working for your company. And maybe that means preliminary injunction time. Maybe. I don’t know. I’m not there yet. But I’m telling you, you’re looking at a serious problem."

...

"Well, why did he take [them] then?". "He downloaded 14,000 files, he wiped clean the computer, and he took [them] with him. That's the record. He’s not denying it. You're not denying it. No one on your side is denying he has the 14,000 files. Maybe you will. But if it's going to be denied, how can he take the 5th Amendment? This is an extraordinary case. In 42 years, I've never seen a record this strong. You are up against it. And you are looking at a preliminary injunction, even if what you tell me is true."

Uber is having a very bad day when a Federal judge starts talking like that. A preliminary injunction looks likely. If Uber can't find anything, this goes against them. Nobody has denied that Levandowski copied the files. Uber paid $600 million for Otto's technology and people. Even if the files didn't make it to Uber's computers, Waymo can probably get a preliminary injunction shutting down much of Uber's self-driving effort. Then Uber gets to argue that their technology is different from Waymo's. It's going to be hard to argue independent invention when all the people are from Google's project.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#63

Post by dllthomas »

throwaway729 wrote: post #59
fowlerpower wrote: post #40

This story is fascinating for tech people everywhere and we should all pay attention. We all have big dreams of starting our own company some day (I know do) and many of us work for big corporations that would rather we never go anywhere and work for as little as possible. (admittedly the markets are forcing them to pay us a lot but they aren't doing it out of good will). The outcome of this will teach us all very va…

> The outcome of this will teach us all very valuable lessons. Lesson #1: Don't steal. > I can't be the only one who is a little paranoid that if I start my own shit I'll be sued or that I may even be sued for some of the side projects I'm working on even though I've never taken any code or resources from my company. Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth. Assuming their acc…

Your Lesson #2 is wrong. If someone accuses you of theft listen to your lawyer, whether you are innocent or guilty.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#64

Post by lern_too_spel »

ekidd wrote: post #53
YCode wrote: post #3

Offhand, this kind of sounds like a parent asking their teenager to go and search their own room for drugs. "Nah, I didn't find anything. I found this plastic bag that looks like it mighta had something in it, but I'm pretty sure my friend left it here and it was empty when he brought it." "Okay son, go search again."

> Offhand, this kind of sounds like a parent asking their teenager to go and search their own room for drugs. I have expressed this attitude to corporate lawyers before, and asked them how the system deals with bad actors. Basically, if a judge catches you lying during discovery, they can issue a default judgement against you and impose very serious additional damages. For example: http://newenglandinhouse.com/2015/0…

If finding and reporting the documents already threatens bankrupt the defendant, imposing additional sanctions for lying about finding the documents isn't much of a threat.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#65

Post by evilsnoopi3 »

throwaway729 wrote: post #59
fowlerpower wrote: post #40

This story is fascinating for tech people everywhere and we should all pay attention. We all have big dreams of starting our own company some day (I know do) and many of us work for big corporations that would rather we never go anywhere and work for as little as possible. (admittedly the markets are forcing them to pay us a lot but they aren't doing it out of good will). The outcome of this will teach us all very va…

> The outcome of this will teach us all very valuable lessons. Lesson #1: Don't steal. > I can't be the only one who is a little paranoid that if I start my own shit I'll be sued or that I may even be sued for some of the side projects I'm working on even though I've never taken any code or resources from my company. Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth. Assuming their acc…

> Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth.

Actually, you shouldn't say anything and get a lawyer. Then listen to them. Pleading the fifth is expressly not an admission of guilt however it is portrayed in the media - often times it is necessary even for innocent parties to invoke. I am not a lawyer and this shouldn't be construed as legal advice.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#66

Post by tajen »

komali2 wrote: post #28
themgt wrote: post #2

'“To the extent Uber tries to excuse its noncompliance on the grounds that Mr. Levandowski has invoked the Fifth Amendment and refused to provide Uber with documents or assistance, Waymo notes that Mr. Levandowski remains — to this day — an Uber executive and in charge of its self-driving car program. Uber has ratified Mr. Levandowski’s behavior and is liable for it,” Waymo attorney Charles K. Verhoeven wrote in a le…

Good, I'm happy he still works there. People should not be fired because of accusations. It opens the door for abuse of the justice system. Let's not fall into the trap of assuming Waymo is the "good guys" and Uber is the "bad guys." Leveling an accusation isn't hard. Anybody can sue anybody as long as you have enough evidence or a good enough argument to convince a judge to hear the case.

I'm happy some people still think like you. The respect for trials was lost at one point in recent history (and I don't know whether the million-dollar coffee and counter-argument explains it [1]), but the theory of justice is that the judge determines what is fair.

I'm especially disgusted that so many men lose their jobs upon women's accusations: Without a judge, I can't verify that said men were guilty or just that a woman leveraged the system. And this happens with many other types of suspicion.

[1] https://youtu.be/KNWh6Kw3ejQ

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#67

Post by imh »

sophacles wrote: post #41
problems wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just write the app that matches popcorn providers with popcorn buyers in their area and charge a 2x markup - 5x during popcorn surges!

Nah, the real money is being a MaaS provider. (Marketplace as a Service). Why try to strike gold when you can just get rich selling the gold-rushers some picks and shovels? It shouldn't be much more than an API and some customizable matching algorithms (e.g. proximity or pricepoint or keywords and maybe a scheduler or two). I'm only half-joking in that I wouldn't be surprised to find out this is a thing already.

Nah, too niche. Why try to strike it rich selling picks and shovels to gold-rushers when you can get richer doing logistics for those pick-and-shovel merchants? MaaSaaS is where it's at.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#68

Post by [deleted] »

ergothus wrote: post #35
oh_sigh wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, there is no reason to believe that a bad actor would steal 14,000 documents from a previous company, and then on the first day on the job go and upload them to the company git server. If I knew I was being nefarious, I would keep those documents on a completely airgapped computer in a private (non-company) space, only reference them when I was alone, and then bring information into the company only through my b…

I don't disagree with your assessment in general, the problem is that when you take the set of "criminals", and then further drill in to "criminals that actually get accused", you rapidly change the ratio of "clever" to "think-they-are-clever". I'm not saying all criminals are stupid [Edit: stupid, careless, ignorant, poor at prediction, poor at risk calculation, take your pick] ...just that many are. And the really…

[deleted]

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#69

Post by HaloZero »

radlad wrote: post #56
vuln wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find this to be the same. What you did could be defended easily by saying it was an accident and you behavior would have been nonmalicious. You didn't purposely back up some old files, start a new company with the same exact tech from those said files then sell the new company 2 months later for a cool 680mill. If you did that then yes your old employ would definitely have a case against you. If your story is…

Except this wasn't found on Levandowski's machine (the guy who sold Octo.)

This was found on another person's laptop who helped found Otto though.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#70

Post by bradleyjg »

kmonsen wrote: post #47
Natsu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He invoked the fifth. Uber could fire him, but I don't seriously expect them to be able to get more out of him than the court itself can. Would you rather lose your job or go to prison isn't a hard question to answer, after all.

Also, if you already have virtually unlimited money loosing the job doesn't seem so bad.

If this case goes very badly for Uber they may well decide to turn around and sue Levandowski. He may not have virtually unlimited money after that.
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