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Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

arstechnica.com

61–70 of 79 posts

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#61
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it an injustice to make people pay when they make our roads unsafe? People drive reckless, ignore speed limits, race over intersections in the last possible moment, ... ... and then it's an injustice when someone fines them?

So, that's an open question -- do the sorts of infractions that red light cameras catch make roads less safe? Does the installation of red light cameras make roads more safe? As it turns out, no. The installation of red light cameras in Chicago has actually increased rear-end collisions that result in injury by 22%.[1] And that's what I mean by moral hazard. Revenue generation by these means changes the city's incent…

>As it turns out, no. The installation of red light cameras in Chicago has actually increased rear-end collisions that result in injury by 22%.

You're misrepresenting the results of the study. The study recommended the continuation of the program. The rear-end collisions were less severe than types of collisions it reduced, it was a safety improvement overall.

From the findings section of the actual study (emphasis mine):

>Quantitative studies conducted in this project demonstrate significant safety benefits of the current RLC program. As a result, it is appropriate to recommend continuation of the program. Most of the intersections have experienced an improvement in safety, particularly in terms of severe angle and turn crashes, albeit with an accompanying increase in less severe rear-end crashes. The safety benefits extend beyond the immediate vicinity of the RLC intersections, evidenced by a significant spillover effect. However, some intersections appear to experience no significant safety impact. Recognizing that crashes are the result of complex interactions amongst many factors, and subject to considerable randomness, these deviations should be used as opportunities for detailed investigation and learning to design and deploy more effective automated enforcement programs

http://www.transportation.northwestern.edu/docs/research/RLC...

Similar benefits have been demonstrated in other cities. Doesn't mean it will work in every city, but there is evidence it works in Chicago.

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#62
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, that's an open question -- do the sorts of infractions that red light cameras catch make roads less safe? Does the installation of red light cameras make roads more safe? As it turns out, no. The installation of red light cameras in Chicago has actually increased rear-end collisions that result in injury by 22%.[1] And that's what I mean by moral hazard. Revenue generation by these means changes the city's incent…

>As it turns out, no. The installation of red light cameras in Chicago has actually increased rear-end collisions that result in injury by 22%. You're misrepresenting the results of the study. The study recommended the continuation of the program. The rear-end collisions were less severe than types of collisions it reduced, it was a safety improvement overall. From the findings section of the actual study (emphasis m…

If you want to accuse me of "misrepresenting" things, you should have your facts right. The study I was quoting that finding from was conducted by Texas A&M at the behest of the Chicago Tribune. The study you're quoting from was conducted by Northwestern University for the Chicago Department of Transportation.

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#63
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stopping safely wasn't a problem. The issue was getting going again, because it'd stall out at a complete stop. Considering I'd chosen a time when the roads were virtually empty, and a route that consisted entirely of four lane roads, I wasn't endangering anyone. I'd also already blown through my tow insurance by having it towed several times to local shops who couldn't diagnose or correct the issue, so I'd have had…

Would it be allowed in the US to drive a vehicle on public roads that is not able to start on it's own? Because your explanation sounds awfully like "Very sorry, office – I'm kinda in a hurry because I want to get rid of this body in the back before it starts smelling".

>Would it be allowed in the US to drive a vehicle on public roads that is not able to start on it's own?

The stalling was infrequent, not constant. I'm sure a lot of things are technically illegal, but it would depend on the state.

>Because your explanation sounds awfully like "Very sorry, office – I'm kinda in a hurry because I want to get rid of this body in the back before it starts smelling".

What? I'm starting to regret even sharing this story. :)

If it makes you feel any better, it was a small town, so the mechanic and local cops were friends. Seeing as I would've literally been pulled over outside of the mechanic's garage, and that common sense was in my favor anyways, I'm sticking with the 98% probability of getting off.

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As it turns out, no. The installation of red light cameras in Chicago has actually increased rear-end collisions that result in injury by 22%. You're misrepresenting the results of the study. The study recommended the continuation of the program. The rear-end collisions were less severe than types of collisions it reduced, it was a safety improvement overall. From the findings section of the actual study (emphasis m…

If you want to accuse me of "misrepresenting" things, you should have your facts right. The study I was quoting that finding from was conducted by Texas A&M at the behest of the Chicago Tribune. The study you're quoting from was conducted by Northwestern University for the Chicago Department of Transportation.

Fair enough, I incorrectly assumed you were citing the one released last week, not 3 years ago. Either way, increased collisions (or one type of collision) doesn't necessarily mean decreased safety.

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#65
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to accuse me of "misrepresenting" things, you should have your facts right. The study I was quoting that finding from was conducted by Texas A&M at the behest of the Chicago Tribune. The study you're quoting from was conducted by Northwestern University for the Chicago Department of Transportation.

Fair enough, I incorrectly assumed you were citing the one released last week, not 3 years ago. Either way, increased collisions (or one type of collision) doesn't necessarily mean decreased safety.

I don't know if I consider "fair enough" and a backhanded insult to really be an apology for unfairly assuming maliciousness on my part, but okay.

I would perhaps phrase that as "citing the study released by an impartial third-party, not by the people who are engaging in the moral hazard and trying to justify their behavior" instead.

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#66
post #16

The moral hazard that comes from cities using fines for offenses to generate revenue is awful and despicable, and it causes all sorts of injustices, big and small. Red light cameras are a part of this, and they're awful.

An example of what I would consider red-light camera abuse:

Philadelphia has a number of red light cameras which each generate about 10,000 tickets a year. That's about 30 tickets a day for each camera, $100 per ticket. 12 cameras generate $9 million a year [1].

If 30 people are "running" the red light each day, does that say more about the drivers or about the setup of the red light?

[1] http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/traffic/transit/Red-Light-Cam...

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#67
post #28
post #16

The moral hazard that comes from cities using fines for offenses to generate revenue is awful and despicable, and it causes all sorts of injustices, big and small. Red light cameras are a part of this, and they're awful.

I agree. I've only ever received one red light violation, and that was because I intentionally rolled through a red light at low speed on a three-way intersection making a right turn. It was early Sunday morning in clear conditions, with clear visibility in all directions for about a quarter mile, not a car in sight. My trusty crapmobile had been stalling while resting at complete stops, and the destination was my me…

You don't have to settle with the complainant, if you can convince the judge and/or jury.

Even if you don't actually want to go to court, you can usually still write an answer. Then you can still propose a settlement more favorable to you by mail, if the case isn't dropped outright. Why pay $100 if you could pay $20 plus postage stamps?

The automated enforcement would completely fall apart if the contractor had to spend money on skilled human labor for every citation. So every time you get a ticket from a robot, write an answer, and request source code for the robot's software as discovery. People pay because they don't want the hassle, but when you just send in a check for automated traffic enforcement tickets, you are paying the Dane-geld, and will never be rid of the Dane.

  "We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
    No matter how trifling the cost;
  For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
    And the nation that plays it is lost!"  --R. Kipling, "Dane-geld"
https://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/dane_geld.htm...

(Not a lawyer. Not legal advice.)

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#68
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not the strongest possible, but I've heard the argument in the past that it violates the confrontation clause of the 6th amendment – that you are unable to face your accuser, since your accuser is simply a timed camera. OTOH, since you can sue property (for example in asset forfeiture cases), that might not hold any water.

The camera isn't your accuser. The municipality is your accuser, using the evidence from the camera as proof of the law being broken. If you break into a building and get busted by an automated silent alarm, the alarm isn't the one accusing you.

If i get pulled over by a cop and he doesnt show up to court, my ticket is dismissed.

When i get mailed a ticket from a corporation, who is expected to show up in court to be my 'accuser'?

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confrontation_Clause

I don't get that argument. How is a red light camera different than surveillance footage that show a murder? It's not a witness, it's evidence.

the surveillance footage is evidence, not an accuser.

in your murder example, you would still need to be arrested by a physical person in a police uniform, you would have some interaction with an agent of the state.

when you get a ticket in the mail, who is your accuser? Whose name is on the ticket? what is their badge number? how do i lodge a complaint against this officer? Who is expected to show up in court to prosecute this case?

Re: Red-light camera grace period goes from 0.1 to 0.3 seconds, Chicago to lose $17M

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confrontation_Clause

I don't get that argument. How is a red light camera different than surveillance footage that show a murder? It's not a witness, it's evidence.

A murder case would require proving that the person on camera is the accused.

A red light camera generally can't prove you're the person driving your car - they usually don't have the resolution nor the angle to show the driver.

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