Earlier quoted context omitted.
No one has to "attempt to divide the genders." Women have already been subjected to this in colonial and imperial countries for at least thousands of years. What you see as an "attempt at dividing" is more accurately the article showing you reality while you dismiss it.
Yea, reading this comment just a week after Susan Fowler's post on her experiences at Uber is surreal. It's not the ones complaining about this stuff who are "dividing the genders".
Nevertheless, She Coded
61–70 of 398 posts
Re: Nevertheless, She Coded
#62Virtue Signalling and attempting to divide the genders in the opening, before the quotes from women in tech. I expect better from The Practical Dev, you don't have to paint men in a derogatory light to bring up women.
And of course, we're not even a month of a self-implosion event at Uber, where we see a lot of corroboration of workplace harassment claims.
If you need to be told "not all men" you can maybe write a chrome extension so that it subs "men" to "men (but of course it should be clear from context: not every single man ever or currently)" and that'll cover you.
Re: Nevertheless, She Coded
#63Re: Nevertheless, She Coded
#64there's no pay gap in any industry when you take into account hours worked and years of experience. Women generally work less than men and take time off to have babies, man lands on moon.
http://time.com/money/4285843/gender-pay-gap-excuses-wrong/
“A 2011 study from Georgetown's Center on Education and the Workforce found that "men with some college but no degree earn about the same as women with a Bachelor’s degree," and that "wo men have to have a Ph.D. to make as much as men with a B.A."
So you can't chalk the wage gap up to education. What about time in the workforce then? Attributing differences in pay to women's perceived inexperience ignores the studies that show the more years a woman spends in the workforce, the bigger the gap gets between her and her equally experienced male colleagues. Women in their late 20s earn around 92% of what their male peers receive, whereas women in their early 50s make just 71% of the average man's wages, according to a report from Claudia Goldin, an economics professor at Harvard University.”
Re: Nevertheless, She Coded
#65I personally don't find anything flag worthy in this. Can the mods please unflag this?
Re: Nevertheless, She Coded
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Google Susan Fowler and/or stop being dishonest.
Susan Fowlers case is harrowing and disgusting and shows that sometimes there bad people in powerful positions who are sexist. I don't think the tone of "the world is sexist" is genuine or fair, Susan Fowlers case is notable because it's definitely the exception, not the norm. Of course I will be glad when things like that _never- happen_, but if you take the example of murders.. There is usually a huge murder proble…
One explanation for this is that it isn't happening. Another is that it isn't happening in my "spaces" (networks/companies/etc.). But another is that it is, but in ways that I don't see. I don't know how much all my coworkers are paid, and if someone is receiving unwanted advances it would likely be happening where I can't see it. There are other explanations too, maybe I'm used to some sexist behaviors and wouldn't notice if they happened right in front of me. A lot of the tech culture humor I'm aware of, and have participated in, revolves around programmers being men. It took some time and some serious reflection before I realized this was the case, and that it was a problem.
So sure, no one in my office runs around "grabbing women by the ...," or joking with me about it, but that doesn't mean sexism isn't happening. And I respect and trust my female peers enough to take them seriously when they tell me it is.
All that said, there's one piece of data I simply can't square with "sexism isn't a serious problem in tech." Every company I've worked for, every conference or meetup I've attended, most of the blogs I follow and books I've read - vastly more men than women. To the point that it's almost absurd. Here's what gets me about that - I love what I do! Tech is a great field to be working in for a ton of reasons! Objective reasons! On top of that so much of tech lends itself naturally to inclusiveness. What the fk is going on that I can work for years on teams of 90% men?! This doesn't prove sexism in tech, but it's evidence that something is up, right? And the accounts I've heard of women being treated poorly in tech give credence sexism as one possible and reasonable explanation.
Heck, I don't even think I'm arguing with you. Your posts sound reasonable, I get the sense you care, and I'm certainly less familiar with European tech culture than American. BUT it is worth your time to dig into the, "if I don't see it isn't happening" thing because that can be a trap; one I've fallen into myself.
Re: Nevertheless, She Coded
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Jacob Applebaum was publicly crucified and Uber also. That would not be a thing if there was an inherent sexism in tech, if that was the case people would have shrugged at it as if it was normal behaviour. They most certainly did not. I won't comment on "get out of the way".
No one is talking about punishments or justice after the fact. You would never say a crime that occurs systematically is a non-issue because the perpetrators are punished if/when caught. PLEASE get out of the way. Stop mucking with people's fights for equality by injecting your willful ignorance.
The reason I bring this up is because if Women know it's normal and accepted to point out their oppressors and that justice will be had, then they will be more likely to report them and the world becomes a better place.
I fight for equality, my fight is no less valid than yours just because I have a penis, but I told you about the refugees already- I don't want women to be in tech if they're not integrated. We _all_ deserve to be integrated.
Re: Nevertheless, She Coded
#68Virtue Signalling and attempting to divide the genders in the opening, before the quotes from women in tech. I expect better from The Practical Dev, you don't have to paint men in a derogatory light to bring up women.
I read the post, but your comments still make little sense to me. The only interpretations I can think of paint you in a pretty negative light and that would be clearly unfair on my part.
FWIW, gender equality is a serious issue in all fields (including software development) in this country and I feel it is both important and worthwhile to keep this top-of-mind. International Women's Day and this page are both working toward that goal... This surely is just as relevant to the site as the "Decline in Sexual Frequency Among American Adults" article.[0]
[0]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-017-0953-...
Re: Nevertheless, She Coded
#69I personally don't find anything flag worthy in this. Can the mods please unflag this?
Re: Nevertheless, She Coded
#70Treatment of women as full-fledged peers is definitely something that needs better attention in our industry.