Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 155 posts

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#61

Post by gizmo »

theoh wrote: post #51
gizmo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning is repetition. Exercises. Flash cards. Midterms followed by exams. You either hear the argument once and you repeat it to yourself, or you get the argument spoon fed multiple times, but the bottom line is the same. Without repetition there is no memorization or internalization, and no learning can take place. Phrasing the challenge as "sound enough logic" puts the burden of proof in the wrong place. It impli…

Um, what about the Elaboration Likelihood Model? It's about persuasion and it contends that there are two ways it happens: through a rational evaluation of the material, or based on the credibility of the source (and other social cues). Now, sometimes you might come to believe something through repetition, but it's possible to verify things (some of the time) and you shouldn't just claim that repetition is the only r…

I think the model is wrong, because it presumes people are rational agents that change their mind either through careful evaluation of the arguments or by outsourcing this rational evaluation to a trustworthy person. This model doesn't take repetition at all into consideration, so I don't think it holds up empirically.

Back in Aristotle's day it was about Ethos, Pathos, and Logos. I don't think that model has stood the test of time either.

I don't want to open Pandora's Box, but look at Trump's speeches. He persuades through repetition, and it demonstrably works.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#62

Post by hosh »

makomk wrote: post #55
Shubley wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind that this is contemporary writing. They likely wrote it in such a way with the goal of forming this comparison in your mind. I think one needs to look at older writings to get a take that isn't designed to reinforce the constructed media narrative du jour. Even then its hard to get decent info on this topic because its always been so morally charged. Nothing obscures reality worse than moral concerns. Ed…

Indeed, it's important to remember that publications like Wired do have a narrative they want to push. My favourite example of this is still these two articles about the possibility of hacking election machines to rig the election: https://www.wired.com/2016/10/wireds-totally-legit-guide-rig... - from before the election, claiming it was basically impossible and would require a massive conspiracy https://www.wired.co…

There are also subtle narratives in the mind that, like fish swimming in water, it is generally not noticeable. Even facts can be co-opted to support those stories:

"I am a good person."

"I am a just person."

"I do the right things."

"I am a hero."

"I am right because the facts support me."

"I am not to blame."

"I am to blame."

"I am successful."

"I am a failure."

It's the lies people tell themselves that make room for allowing opening for lies other people want to say. "Here, you repeat the lies I want to hear about me, and I'll repeat the lies you want to hear about you."

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#63

Post by return0 »

Why does the article not mention the russia-hysteria as another prime example of baseless repetitive untruth of the current news cycle? It's also surprisingly light on its facts and logic: in the american left-right debate is there really excessive repetition from one side more than the other?

Is it really a matter of repetition or a matter of trust? Does it matter that fact-checkers point out the errors in trumps tweets? He has gained the trust of his followers, while the fact-checkers have a bad reputation and shady relationships with establishment. Even if they get the facts right, people don't trust them to make decisions right. It's more about what you plan to do with the facts than who has the most facts, and policy decisions are not deterministic, no matter how many facts you throw at them.

Same goes for establishing scientific facts indeed. Peer review is based on a few, reputable reviewers, rather on a crowd of anonymous but trust-less fact-checkers.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#64

Post by metaobject »

CoryG89 wrote: post #29
gizmo wrote: post #13

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales. This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks…

I take your point, but I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that all persuasion happens through repetition. Maybe I'm a bit full of myself, but I like to think that with sound enough logic, I could be persuaded from my position by hearing an argument only once. That would probably be the distinction I would draw between persuasion in general and indoctrination / brainwashing. Of course, generally indoctrinat…

I've read geometric/mathematical proofs that have convinced me immediately. Just seeing the logical steps flow from step to step was enough to prove the assertion was true.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#65

Post by gramstrong »

xapata wrote: post #11
lacampbell wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have. I'm not going to mention which ones as that would cheapen the general message, which is bigger than politics. And yes, I no longer believe them.

No it wouldn't cheapen the message, it would illustrate it. I'm also curious which ones.

I've got two for you, from both sides: "Fake News" and "Muslim Ban".

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#68

Post by [deleted] »

metaobject wrote: post #64
CoryG89 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take your point, but I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that all persuasion happens through repetition. Maybe I'm a bit full of myself, but I like to think that with sound enough logic, I could be persuaded from my position by hearing an argument only once. That would probably be the distinction I would draw between persuasion in general and indoctrination / brainwashing. Of course, generally indoctrinat…

I've read geometric/mathematical proofs that have convinced me immediately. Just seeing the logical steps flow from step to step was enough to prove the assertion was true.

[deleted]

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#69

Post by theoh »

gizmo wrote: post #61
theoh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, what about the Elaboration Likelihood Model? It's about persuasion and it contends that there are two ways it happens: through a rational evaluation of the material, or based on the credibility of the source (and other social cues). Now, sometimes you might come to believe something through repetition, but it's possible to verify things (some of the time) and you shouldn't just claim that repetition is the only r…

I think the model is wrong, because it presumes people are rational agents that change their mind either through careful evaluation of the arguments or by outsourcing this rational evaluation to a trustworthy person. This model doesn't take repetition at all into consideration, so I don't think it holds up empirically. Back in Aristotle's day it was about Ethos, Pathos, and Logos. I don't think that model has stood t…

Ok, I didn't mean to beg the question by simply claiming that people can rationally evaluate statements.

The things people learn are not noise. They have structure, they have hidden consistencies. Whatever you think of the rationality or otherwise of thought, surely you will agree that trying to learn inconsistent facts is going to be more trouble than learning consistent facts which support each other in a cumulative way.

People might identify with the opinions of a politician because they already hold those opinions, or similar opinions. They are unlikely to ever agree with/be persuaded by complete inconsistent nonsense, however often it is repeated. Like, I mean nonsense that doesn't even have linguistic structure or maybe any meaning.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#70

Post by umberway »

gizmo wrote: post #13

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales. This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks…

Repetition of a true message to a variety of audiences may be valuable because one gains a better understanding of the common misconceptions and opposing arguments. Which leads to subtly improved arguments and rhetoric. Also there's always the possibility that the message is in fact wrong and that this may be brought to light by new criticism or fresh evidence.
Post reply on HN