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An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

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Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#61
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have it too. It would have been impossible to change, I was given a template contract and I do have side projects outside of my work. On the day I leave the job because my side project is making enough money, I would not be very nervous about it. How would they know? I also have something like "should not work in similar area within The UK". Again, how would they know? This conflicts with data protection act, there…

Wouldn't they be able to find that out from LinkedIn or social, for perhaps the majority of tech people? Not saying that you use social media, but it's possible they find out.

Why advertising something like I have been working on this project for the last 5 years would benefit me in any way?

They could guess that I didn't create it in the last two weeks, but then good luck proving it in court.

I have much better relationship with my employer now, If I hadn't I would quit tomorrow.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#62
post #24

I'm not trying to defend gigster (broad indemnification clauses are bad news), but if someone framed those questions to me that way, I would also be hesitant to respond to them. It raises the "I'm going to be a handful" alarm. So, I understand why they were hesitant to respond and didn't want to comment on it.

If someone asking questions like that, which directly affect their personal wellbeing, is "a handful" to you, then that says a LOT about who you, dqv, are, as a person.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#63
post #11

That classic "well, nobody else has had a problem, so you must be the problem" response. I remember at one of my first jobs, myself and another programmer were working on a side project (outside of work hours, not using company resources in any way) that were considering monetising. Our contracts stated that the company we worked for owned all of our code produced in and out of working hours. We got to the business e…

Is this common in contracts??

It's a standard clause, but depending on jurisdiction it's at least partially invalid anyway.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#64
post #42

I've worked as a consultant for years. I occasionally employ a lawyer to review contracts with my clients. As a general rule of thumb, I'll only work for a client under one of three circumstances: 1. The client's standard contract is reasonable. This is rare. 2. The client's standard contract is unreasonable, but they're willing to cross-out or rewrite the objectionable bits before signing. This is very common. 3. It…

In my experience, it's very unusual for a company to simply state that it won't talk about it at all.

I get one of these two patterns:

1. "Oh, okay, we see your point. We'll cross out clauses X and Y."

2. "Oh, thank you, we'll take this very seriously. Now we will have people talk at you for hours about why you can trust us and everyone else here was dumb enough to sign up."

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#65
post #24

I'm not trying to defend gigster (broad indemnification clauses are bad news), but if someone framed those questions to me that way, I would also be hesitant to respond to them. It raises the "I'm going to be a handful" alarm. So, I understand why they were hesitant to respond and didn't want to comment on it.

I don't agree in the slightest. If anything, developers who ask questions are the ones you want most . One of the worst traits in a developer is the tendency to say yes to everything.

Besides that, you're endangering the contractness of your contract if the other party cannot negotiate any of its terms, and indicates any confusion over just what it is he or she may be agreeing to--especially if they express their confusion in a document that can later be produced in court.

If I were to sign that "contract", I would certainly send the other party a written "signing statement" that interprets all possibly ambiguous clauses in my favor, and mentions that I received no valuable consideration for signing it. If you can't tell me what the contract means, I'll tell you what I thought it meant, and that will be what you can enforce. If you won't pay a lawyer to answer my questions before the fact, you can certainly pay one to determine the implications of my letter for you after the fact.

If I were a judge (and I'm not even a lawyer, but I can still role-play), refusing to even answer questions about the contract demonstrates a lack of equity, and I'd take that as potential grounds to dismiss any claims against the person who asked them, that may have been based upon the document they signed, which they were completely unable to negotiate, and likely received no valuable consideration for. If someone asks, "does this mean you can claim ownership over X?", you don't answer definitively, and then you later claim in court that you own X, that's bullshit, pure and simple. If the other party did not understand that to be the case at the time they signed, it is unenforceable.

If I were the defendant, I think I would also try to paint that refusal as an unwillingness to pay for some professional legal counsel at an appropriate time, rather than asking a judge to clean up their mess long after the fact. Everyone hates it when they get snubbed by someone, and then that person later comes asking for a favor. Referring legal questions to legal counsel is simply a cost of doing business. If you can't pay that cost, and try to shift it to the public legal system, how do you justify the rest of your business?

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#66
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this common in contracts??

It's a standard clause, but depending on jurisdiction it's at least partially invalid anyway.

it normally has to be "related" to your employers business for it to be valid

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#67

My standard reply to "oh we've never asked for someone's IP even though it's in the contract" is "great, then you won't mind me taking that term out, since you weren't using it anyway". Remember, if it's in the contract, it's what's happening. Let no amount of promises persuade you.

I give a similar reply when being asked to remove an interest penalty clause for late payment.

"We always pay our bills on time so there's no need for that!"

"Great! In that case you don't have to worry about every paying it either so we'll leave it in!"

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#68
post #42

I've worked as a consultant for years. I occasionally employ a lawyer to review contracts with my clients. As a general rule of thumb, I'll only work for a client under one of three circumstances: 1. The client's standard contract is reasonable. This is rare. 2. The client's standard contract is unreasonable, but they're willing to cross-out or rewrite the objectionable bits before signing. This is very common. 3. It…

I've worked on contract projects for years too and I couldn't have written a better response. In that time I only had one client where the standard contract was reasonable. Contracts are 99% of the time changed before being signed.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#69
Legal Shit 101... if someone asks you to sign a contract, right away assume it's weighted in their favor. You have to read the contract before you sign it. Take your time, feel free to ask for a take-home copy and ask your lawyer to review it. Having asked a lot of people to sign contracts over the years... I'd say 90-95% don't read it and just sign where they are told to. Expedient...

The contract template was written by the company's legal team to protect the company, it may have some terms in it that seem like they are an "agreement" (like how you'll get paid)... but really the goal is to keep the company safe. And, to be fair, I'd fire any lawyer who didn't give me a contract like that... so it's not the lawyer's fault. But if you sign it... you're agreeing to it. Easy solution: don't sign it. (But of course you presumably want the job.)

Middle-ground solution: Read the contract, red-line / annotate things you have concerns / questions about, and ask if you can speak with legal. If it's a small business... they will probably weigh you comments against their lawyer's hourly cost... and more often than not just agree to let you cut things out of the contract. If it's a larger company... you're probably locked in if you want to work there -- that's just the reality of it. If you talk with legal, do your best to understand what their motivations are and make sure the contract is explicit. You can also ask for exceptions for side projects by simply declaring, "Any work done for side projects X, Y, Z shall not fall under the scope of this contract."

Anyway look, it's a negotiation. You can test the limits, nothing is set in stone. You're the only one who is on your side. Everyone else is out to fuck you. Safe assumption.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#70

I interviewed to be a Gigster about a year and a half ago, and was accepted, but the more I considered it and saw how gigs were distributed (at that time mostly via Slack messages) I got a bad feeling, like I was a dog in a pack, fighting over meat scraps. It was then I realized the gig economy is not all sunshine and roses. All that to say, this doesn't surprise me, that Gigster doesn't have its workers best interes…

They're even trying to replace their workers with automation in a similar way. See, for example, https://jobs.lever.co/gigster/19fc3d07-ba71-47d9-a77d-654c96...
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