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The deep roots of modern resentment

economist.com

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Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#61

Post by crdoconnor »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #53
crdoconnor wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism's "discreditation" was the result of a decades long propaganda campaign and their descent into authoritarianism which isn't all that different to that which many capitalist countries went through (or some are currently going through). You hear plenty of "well, capitalism would work fine too if it were just implemented correctly". That's exactly as stupid.

First point, yes on propaganda, but the failure of the Soviet Union had more to do with the inherent limitations of central planning than Marxist communism. That doesn't mean communism is a broken ideology, but rather that by attempting to refine the designs of failed communist states risks going back on the same path, instead of envisioning a new model for a community-focused ideology (in a way different from capita…

>the failure of the Soviet Union had more to do with the inherent limitations of central planning than Marxist communism

Between 1917 and 1950 they grew at a staggering pace. From agricultural backwater to first space power. That isn't an economic failure in any way.

After the 1950s they tried to re-gear the economy to producing things like fridges and, of course, for consumer items it wasn't nearly as effective.

In the end the thing that undid the Soviet project was the idealism of its president (Gorbachev) when faced with the results of his authoritarian predecessors. It wasn't really an economic failure.

>by attempting to refine the designs of failed communist states risks going back on the same path

If we attribute Stalin to a failure of communism surely we have to also attribute Hitler to a failure of capitalism?

Or we could accept that both analyses are stupid and shallow.

>Capitalism lends itself more towards authoritarianism

I think economic systems are orthogonal to political systems.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#62

Post by coding123 »

I think there are two major ways liberals and conservatives think. Liberals tend to come up with solutions to problems they see over and over again. Conservatives are more like, hey look at Joe, he needs some help, can someone get him food and see why he's doing so poorly.

It's odd, but when you think about systems vs single solutions, liberals like to think of the "systemic solution" so it doesn't happen again. A Factory explodes? Regulation is the answer. A baby is switched at birth? We need much more complicated computer systems to track babies. etc...

Conservatives are more like, oh shit, that WONT happen again, we promise. And likely it doesn't or rarely does.

I'm not really arguing which of these routes is better here, but I see more and more that these opposite ways of thinking is the crux of our anti-trusting of the other side. I think the only way they will is if we, as a people, try to sit in each other's shoes more.

What's funny as an interesting parable, I see the liberal route of making rules (to save lives, stop mis-matched babies) as procedural/imperative programming.

The conservative route of simply fixing the problems that went wrong as a social fix as a machine learning.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#63

Post by nrclark »

crdoconnor wrote: post #42
compiler-guy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is another criticism, not an alternative proposal. Please give an alternative proposal.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

Out of curiosity, what do you suppose are the long-term effects of raising minimum wage?

If you were a landlord managing an apartment building, how much do you charge for a unit? If all of your tenants suddenly make twice as much money as they did, how long before you double their rent?

If a McDonalds needs to pay all of its employees twice as much money, how long before they double their food prices to make up the difference?

I feel like the working poor in this country get a terrible deal in this world - we definitely need to make conditions better. But does raising minimum wage actually do that in the long run? Or does it just increase inflation and destroy any savings the poor might have?

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#64

Post by crdoconnor »

Animats wrote: post #58
crdoconnor wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions. The choice to depict, say, Sanders' proposals as unrealistic by straw manning them was a deliberate political attack: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2016/01/22/What-Libera... Unfortunately the average Democrat primary voter didn't dig into the substance of the attack well enough to realize that it was essentially bullshit. They…

Rail nationalization again ? Britain has gone back and forth on that since the 1940s.[1][2][3] It didn't help. Currently, trains are mostly private and track is mostly Government-owned, which sort of works. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railtrack [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail

It sort of works at 3x the price you pay in Western Europe.

Of course, I don't think people want to return to the period just before privatization either when the rail network was deliberately starved of investment in order to make privatization appear more appealing.

Nonetheless, the majority of the public support this idea. The Telegraph literally called the majority of the public communists for doing so.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#65

Post by guard-of-terra »

nrclark wrote: post #63
crdoconnor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

Out of curiosity, what do you suppose are the long-term effects of raising minimum wage? If you were a landlord managing an apartment building, how much do you charge for a unit? If all of your tenants suddenly make twice as much money as they did, how long before you double their rent? If a McDonalds needs to pay all of its employees twice as much money, how long before they double their food prices to make up the d…

> If you were a landlord managing an apartment building, how much do you charge for a unit? If all of your tenants suddenly make twice as much money as they did, how long before you double their rent?

Remember, your tenants are now able to move to gentrified areas, their wages allow that. Some might want to get a mortgage for a house they could not dream of previously. So now your apartments will have to compete with much wider selection of property. You'll raise prices definitely, but not as much as you would think, and you'll spend most of the difference doing renovations and spending on security.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#66

Post by dmritard96 »

EekSnakePond wrote: post #13
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How, exactly, does Western liberalism absolutely require cheap brown people?

Every single thing you touched (And every single thing connected to what you touched) to type that statement was made overseas. Welcome to the international system of currency and labor arbitrage, a core prerequisite for any democratic experiment. Democracy has ALWAYS and WILL always require slaves.

To me, I think you are objecting to capitalism more than democracy. That certainly chases labor arbitrage however I do think its a poor mischaracterization to attribute labor arbitrage to slavery. That doesn't mean arbitrarily small amounts of compensation don't effectively become slavery, but instead that pareto optimality is not the only way to prevent slavery.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#67

Post by Retric »

thebokehwokeh2 wrote: post #54
crdoconnor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

> Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. I don't know how you came to the conclusion of western liberalism being against raising the minimum wage when it's been a core tenet of their platforms for over a decade now. But to $20 an hour is something neither liberal nor conservative has EVER advocated for as until there is a public uproar for it, both will always side with corporate interests. That said, your proposition i…

In direct inflation terms the minimum wage was ~10.50 / hour in 1968 or around the current minimum wage in France. Though as a percentage of the economy it was more than 20$/hour. Thus, it's not quite as clear cut as you are suggesting.

PS: Inflation is not really a single number as some but not all things end up costing less to produce over time. In other words, A may get more expensive while B becomes less expensive. Which makes long term inflation calculations more complicated.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#68

Post by Retric »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #65
nrclark wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what do you suppose are the long-term effects of raising minimum wage? If you were a landlord managing an apartment building, how much do you charge for a unit? If all of your tenants suddenly make twice as much money as they did, how long before you double their rent? If a McDonalds needs to pay all of its employees twice as much money, how long before they double their food prices to make up the d…

> If you were a landlord managing an apartment building, how much do you charge for a unit? If all of your tenants suddenly make twice as much money as they did, how long before you double their rent? Remember, your tenants are now able to move to gentrified areas, their wages allow that. Some might want to get a mortgage for a house they could not dream of previously. So now your apartments will have to compete with…

It also assumed increasing minimum wage would increase everyone wage. It's not going to boost a retired persons income or a CEO's pay for example.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#69

Post by bduerst »

nrclark wrote: post #63
crdoconnor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

Out of curiosity, what do you suppose are the long-term effects of raising minimum wage? If you were a landlord managing an apartment building, how much do you charge for a unit? If all of your tenants suddenly make twice as much money as they did, how long before you double their rent? If a McDonalds needs to pay all of its employees twice as much money, how long before they double their food prices to make up the d…

Coincidentally, housing prices (buy/rent) are income-elastic and one of the criticisms of a blanket UBI, not just minimum wage.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#70

Post by astine »

thebokehwokeh2 wrote: post #54
crdoconnor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. Watch as "serious economists" lie about: * All of the jobs that will actually not disappear. * All of the prices that will actually not rise (by much). And try really really hard to pretend that: * Raising the minimum wage doesn't channel profits into the pockets of workers. What surprises me isn't that they lie. What surprises me is that people continue to believe them.

> Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour. I don't know how you came to the conclusion of western liberalism being against raising the minimum wage when it's been a core tenet of their platforms for over a decade now. But to $20 an hour is something neither liberal nor conservative has EVER advocated for as until there is a public uproar for it, both will always side with corporate interests. That said, your proposition i…

Despite the fact that political language in the United States confuses this, 'Western Liberalism' is not the same thing as 'Progressivism'. Western Liberalism is about liberal democracy combined with free-ish markets. This can come with a minimum wage, or it might not. It encompasses the vast majority of the political landscape in most Western countries and everyone from American conservatives and to British labour fall under its domain.
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