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Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

centauri-dreams.org

61–70 of 95 posts

Re: Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

#61
post #43
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no proof will ever be enough for some? Are EM-Deniers going to be a 'thing' now?

If it can accelerate forever, thats proof enough for everyone. However violating the conservation of momentum is a Big Deal. Mathematically that shouldn't be possible due to Noether's. The bar to proof is therefore very high.

General relativity doesn't conserve energy in some spacetimes, so it's not unheard of.

Re: Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

#62
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it can accelerate forever, thats proof enough for everyone. However violating the conservation of momentum is a Big Deal. Mathematically that shouldn't be possible due to Noether's. The bar to proof is therefore very high.

General relativity doesn't conserve energy in some spacetimes, so it's not unheard of.

I'm fairly certain GR conserves momentum, even if it doesn't conserve energy.

Re: Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

#63
post #8

I hope we'll find out in practice: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a22678/em-dri... (via lobster_johnson) "Proud to say that we have a partnership now - so the launch is already funded, and we hope to get a launch slot in 2017."

Being in space doesn't solve the problem of errant forces completely. You can push against the earth's magnetic field, for example.

According to the inventor, The Mach thruster (also discussed, and potential underlying physics for the EmDrive) supposedly "pushes against" the Earth's gravity.

Re: Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

#65
post #45

If they have two versions of the resonant cavity, one that is tapered and one that is just a simple cylinder that to me would be a big step in the right direction to address many of the concerns. Basically the cylinder with no taper should show zero thrust. And the version with the taper should show a thrust. Then if they test that setup inside the huge Apollo program vacuum chamber far away from the side walls and c…

We don't know if the taper does anything though. If we don't have a working theory we can't really use variations of the working device to prove anything.

From what I've read, the theory amounts to "there are more photons bouncing off the fat end versus the thin end hence thrust." Which personally I think is highly questionable given the low-energy regime involved.

Re: Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

#66
post #27
post #14

Wow, I've not read something like that in a long time. More news needs to be like this. Examining what we know presenting where we are. Not taking sides and polarizing the discussion. I do think people miss one small aspect of this story. How long has it been since we've had a device built that we've no understanding of the principles of it's operation? I think that's an amazing fluke and (if the effect is genuine) s…

There are others. There's cold fusion. There's a strange effect by which a rotating superconductor appears to induce gravity.[1] (Whatever happened to that? Articles from 2002-2006, then nothing.) They're all down near the noise threshold. [1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060325232140.h...

There was another paper about 15 years ago where a electrically pulsed, superconducting thin film was able to displace a pith ball from tens of meters, through walls. I can't find the paper but it was on arxiv. Some sort of gravity pulse; weird shit.

Re: Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

#67
post #45

If they have two versions of the resonant cavity, one that is tapered and one that is just a simple cylinder that to me would be a big step in the right direction to address many of the concerns. Basically the cylinder with no taper should show zero thrust. And the version with the taper should show a thrust. Then if they test that setup inside the huge Apollo program vacuum chamber far away from the side walls and c…

We don't know if the taper does anything though. If we don't have a working theory we can't really use variations of the working device to prove anything.

Oh I had thought that the asymmetric shape with the tapered cone shape was an important feature from the original inventor. But yea, hard to guess without more systematic theory to leverage off of yea..

Re: Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

#68
post #27
post #14

Wow, I've not read something like that in a long time. More news needs to be like this. Examining what we know presenting where we are. Not taking sides and polarizing the discussion. I do think people miss one small aspect of this story. How long has it been since we've had a device built that we've no understanding of the principles of it's operation? I think that's an amazing fluke and (if the effect is genuine) s…

There are others. There's cold fusion. There's a strange effect by which a rotating superconductor appears to induce gravity.[1] (Whatever happened to that? Articles from 2002-2006, then nothing.) They're all down near the noise threshold. [1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060325232140.h...

Here's what happened to it. The Austrian Institute of Technology tried the rotating superconductor thing with a big rotating superconductor and a fiber optic gyro nearby. No "dragging of the metric" was observed.[1] Too bad.

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0608017.pdf

Re: Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

#69
post #66
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are others. There's cold fusion. There's a strange effect by which a rotating superconductor appears to induce gravity.[1] (Whatever happened to that? Articles from 2002-2006, then nothing.) They're all down near the noise threshold. [1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060325232140.h...

There was another paper about 15 years ago where a electrically pulsed, superconducting thin film was able to displace a pith ball from tens of meters, through walls. I can't find the paper but it was on arxiv. Some sort of gravity pulse; weird shit.

Made me think of this. Maybe when they were doing the experiment, a gravitational wave happened and they somehow reflected it?

> Thin superconducting films are predicted to be highly reflective mirrors for gravitational waves at microwave frequencies. The quantum mechanical non-localizability of the negatively charged Cooper pairs, which is protected from the localizing effect of decoherence by an energy gap, causes the pairs to undergo non-picturable, non-geodesic motion in the presence of a gravitational wave.

https://arxiv.org/abs/0903.0661

Re: Uncertain Propulsion Breakthroughs?

#70
post #15
post #7

It's so near the noise threshold. Most of the energy goes into heating the thing; only a tiny fraction comes out as possible thrust. The heating prevents using enough power to get more possible thrust; the thing would burn out. Very frustrating.

If we had any idea how they work (if they work) we could work on optimised designs that generate more thrust and are thus easier to study. But we're not yet anywhere near the stage and instead have to study a design that if it works, is so inefficient that we can hardly tell whether it does anything. Very frustrating indeed

Yet it's happened before in engineering history. Edison discovered the "Edison effect" - he put an extra plate in an incandescent lamp, and discovered that some current, not much, would flow to it through vacuum. This, in 1875, was the beginning of the vacuum tube. But lacking the theory to understand it, it couldn't be improved. Early on, it was thought that there had to be some air, or something, in the tube for it to work. But then it was discovered that hard vacuum worked better. This confused electrical inventors of the era - how could electricity conduct through a vacuum? It wasn't until 1904 that tubes started to be figured out.

Tube filaments are quite different than lamp filaments - tubes need a material where electrons are easily emitted from the surface. Tungsten is good for lamps but terrible for tubes. A little thorium oxide or barium oxide helps a lot. But there was no theory to indicate in what direction to go, and it took 30 years before trial and error produced results.

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