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How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

nytimes.com

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Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#61

Post by slededit »

gertef wrote: post #47
berntb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article by Krugman changed my world view: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... It is almost 20 years old and notes that industrialization and modernization is a process. It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it [edit: except free money, like with oil], including simple jobs in the beginning -- and now China is doing it. In my book, it is good for humanity wi…

Almost no one is opposed to globalization, per se. We are opposed to globalization that drags down worldwide avearge income, and traps people in subsistence lifestyles, paying people 5cents of every $ of value they create, and then boasting about they should be happy they aren't dead. The article doesn't even make sense! He's actually arguing that low wages are better than zero wages, while low wages are also better…

Given the wide disparity in income on the high side, anything that increases equality would necessarily bring down average wages. When it comes to globalization the west must understand its part of the 1%.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#62

Post by HillaryBriss »

wklauss wrote: post #41
HillaryBriss wrote: post #29

> The well-choreographed customs routine is part of a hidden bounty of perks, tax breaks and subsidies in China that supports the world’s biggest iPhone factory, according to confidential government records reviewed by The New York Times, as well as more than 100 interviews with factory workers, logistics handlers, truck drivers, tax specialists and current and former Apple executives. The package of sweeteners and i…

> So, Apple's high profits depend on a whole lot of government subsidies in China. And then Apple takes that cash and protects it from US tax rates by storing it in Ireland. And now, some interesting questions are raised about the legality of that tax scheme. They don't depend on them. Apple would still profit nicely (albeit less) without these subsidies. But then again the same thing could be say of various players…

> What we need is updated international and national tax codes that start taking these things into account. Most of the current legislation was designed for a time much simpler and with less access to global markets and manufacturing chains.

it's a fair point.

sometimes i think: who cares if Apple or Google or Exxon are headquartered in Cupertino or Mountain View or Dallas or New Delhi or Bahrain or Shenzhen? what difference does it make? who gives a shit? they don't want to pay taxes and neither do i.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#63

Post by amazingbmw »

siculars wrote: post #3

Beyond iPhone in China, I have a larger question. Let's say I were building product in the US with child labor in unsafe conditions not adhering to US laws and regulations. Would I be allowed to sell that product in the US? Probably not. If I were doing similarly around the world then seeking to sell that product in the US, it happens to be the case that I could. Why is that the case? Why is it that product built in…

Where does the child labor come from? I didn't notice any mention of child labor in this article.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#64

Post by berntb »

ue_ wrote: post #46
berntb wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would ask for examples of alternative economies being built up and creating nice and democratic countries, but we both know that if you had any supporting data you would have started with it. :-) Please note that experiments with alternative societal models often have failure modes like dictatorships and/or a large part of the population dying in horrible ways and/or... It is not something to experiment with lightl…

>Please note that experiments with alternative societal models often have failure modes like dictatorships and/or a large part of the population dying in horrible ways and/or... It is not something to experiment with lightly. I agree it's not something to be taken lightly, but saying that there have been failures in the past is not an argument against trying to fix those failures by systematically identifying them. T…

>> but saying that there have been failures in the past is not an argument against trying to fix those failures by systematically identifying them.

>>You can't simply dismiss every other model that society may be fitted to by pointing out that atrocities were committed in the past.

That was not the point, really.

My point was partly the horrors of a failed societal experiment of the left wingers. But also not that the most other utopian attempts also failed -- but not generally with tens of millions murdered.

For instance, a Nazi would have a point if he/she argued "The mass murders was just one mistake, trust us next time about corporatism; look at the left extremists -- that is systematic failure all the way from Kuba/Nicaragua to the tens of millions in Sovjet/China to Campuchea. They are also systematically pro antisemites as much as we are, today."

So -- most experiments will fail; societies are really, really complex and hard to predict. See my last paragraph in previous comment -- the alternative left I've seen doesn't exactly inspire confidence in any new experiment when hand waving about the obvious problems and arguably having less credibility than the Nazis...

Any arguments for societal experiments need to acknowledge this. It is hard to better what we have now, reading most any history of alternative societies.

(Yes yes, Godwin. But I argue here that Godwin is unfair; the extreme lefties have worse statistics than the Nazis.)

>> And you're even assuming democracy is something inherently good.

Any society will by definition consist of interest groups pulling in different directions. They need to have a say. If you don't even acknowledge that, see my last paragraph in my previous comment... (which you didn't touch.)

(Or in the classical way of putting it: "Sure, democracy sucks -- but I have never seen a suggestion of anything close in niceness that wasn't just hand waving e.g. a juntas obvious interest in keeping the rest of the population as personal property...")

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#65

Post by berntb »

gertef wrote: post #47
berntb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article by Krugman changed my world view: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... It is almost 20 years old and notes that industrialization and modernization is a process. It doesn't really work for a country to get rich without climbing it [edit: except free money, like with oil], including simple jobs in the beginning -- and now China is doing it. In my book, it is good for humanity wi…

Almost no one is opposed to globalization, per se. We are opposed to globalization that drags down worldwide avearge income, and traps people in subsistence lifestyles, paying people 5cents of every $ of value they create, and then boasting about they should be happy they aren't dead. The article doesn't even make sense! He's actually arguing that low wages are better than zero wages, while low wages are also better…

I can't hear Krugman argue what you claim in that video? Are you bluffing or did I misunderstand?

Can you transcribe exactly what support your extreme claims (without taking it out of context from where Krugman said he supports globalization and why he do that.)

Did Krugman EVER talk about any other way of countries to start getting rich and going towards becoming nice societies (democratic, high education, taking care of people, etc)?

If he can show that, I'd guess he'll get another Nobel... at least. :-)

(Krugman discussed income inequality inside societies a bit, not relevant here. And a bit about US politics.)

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#66

Post by berntb »

berntb wrote: post #64
ue_ wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Please note that experiments with alternative societal models often have failure modes like dictatorships and/or a large part of the population dying in horrible ways and/or... It is not something to experiment with lightly. I agree it's not something to be taken lightly, but saying that there have been failures in the past is not an argument against trying to fix those failures by systematically identifying them. T…

>> but saying that there have been failures in the past is not an argument against trying to fix those failures by systematically identifying them. >>You can't simply dismiss every other model that society may be fitted to by pointing out that atrocities were committed in the past. That was not the point, really. My point was partly the horrors of a failed societal experiment of the left wingers. But also not that th…

Sigh, I cleared up a bad grammar and made it worse. :-(

Change: My point was partly the horrors of a failed societal experiment of the left wingers. But also not that the most other utopian attempts also failed -- but not generally with tens of millions murdered.

To: ... The other part was that most other utopian attempts also failed badly (but not generally with tens of millions murdered).

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#67

Post by simonh »

bisby wrote: post #19
intralizee wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe one of Apple's higher ups has talked about child labor before. I'm not sure if it was Steve or Tim but the convo was that its impossible to handle without hurting the communities because the norm is child labor over there. So the conditions for the children are worse if they have no labor. It's really complicated and not something that you can judge from an arm chair position, you have to go over there and…

If you have a family of 6 (lets assume 2 parents and 4 kids) all working for 50 cents an hour. Saying "your kids have to go to school and not work" and then paying the adults 3 dollars an hour. The family winds up making more money without the kids having to work. (in this admittedly limited example, the family makes double) If you take the kids out of the equation without increasing the parental pay, then yes, you'l…

So the solution is to conjure up extra magic money from nowhere to make everybody wealthy and happy? If only someone had though of that sooner!

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#68

Post by simonh »

jayd16 wrote: post #22
intralizee wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe one of Apple's higher ups has talked about child labor before. I'm not sure if it was Steve or Tim but the convo was that its impossible to handle without hurting the communities because the norm is child labor over there. So the conditions for the children are worse if they have no labor. It's really complicated and not something that you can judge from an arm chair position, you have to go over there and…

You could have made the same argument for child labor before the laws were enacted. Same for slavery. Argument ad antiquitatem is a fallacy.

Not so, context matters. One of the drivers for anti child labour laws was to ensure that children were able to attend the free schooling that had been introduced. The driver was not preventing children from working per se, it was making sure they got an education. For example the long school summer holidays were a pragmatic compromise introduced to allow children to work on farms during harvest time. But if free schooling isn't available, or isn't provided up to the same age level, that motivation goes away.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#69

Post by simonh »

gertef wrote: post #45
intralizee wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe one of Apple's higher ups has talked about child labor before. I'm not sure if it was Steve or Tim but the convo was that its impossible to handle without hurting the communities because the norm is child labor over there. So the conditions for the children are worse if they have no labor. It's really complicated and not something that you can judge from an arm chair position, you have to go over there and…

Yes, that's the lie the corporate execs tell. People lured into a trap would rather live in the trap than die. It's not impossible, for Apple with $XX Billion in profit hiding in tax shelters, to pay better than subsistence wages to their subcontracted workers (or invest in community resources for the cities where their factories are, or similar).

Wages at Foxconn and similar firms are way above subsistence levels. They're far above mean wages for industrial workers in China too, plus Apple specifically writes pay increments into their contracts with the manufacturers to attract the best workers, which is why workers prefer to work on the Apple lines to the ones for Samsung, Microsoft, etc which have laxer standards and don't pay as well.

Re: How China Built ‘iPhone City’ with Billions in Perks for Apple’s Partner

#70

Post by simonh »

skuhn wrote: post #54
TheBeardKing wrote: post #25

>Apple manages to earn 90 percent of the profits in the smartphone industry worldwide, even though it accounts for only 12 percent of the sales That figure is astounding, that every other smartphone manufacturer shares only 10% of worldwide profit.

It's actually even worse than that (for everyone else). In Q3 2016 Apple had 104% of the profits -- because most of the other companies in that industry had no profits at all. Samsung came in at #2 with 0.9% of profits (they usually do a little better, but the Note 7 thing happened).

> had no profits at all.

It's mainly because they actually suffered losses, which is why Apple's share can be more than 100%.

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