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‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

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Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#61

Of course they are nice, every salesman is nice to future prospects. They want you to join their cult. In reality, the people of Utah consume the most anti-depressants in the US, teen suicide rates are among the highest in the country, and if you're not a straight, white, male, mormonism is a terrible environment.

You've posted more than one religious flamewar comment in this thread. We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do this on HN. Literal religious flamewars are the last thing this site needs.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13224646 and marked it off-topic.

Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#62
post #16
post #4

The beliefs are batshit crazy, but in my personal experience, Mormons are consistently the nicest most welcoming people you'd ever meet. It makes me sad that the church leadership doesn't reflect that. :(

You might rethink that "batshit crazy." Mormon beliefs are your standard "God told prophet to write things down and start a church." No crazier than any other religion.

One of the big differences: Mormonism was created in the historical age, there are newspaper accounts[1] of Joseph Smith and his antics. It's harder pill to swallow when your myths are concocted after the Age of Reason, rather than in the swirling mists of "the before time".

But, as others have mentioned, with only one exception, every Mormon I've met has been kind, honest, hard-working (with an emphasis on thrift and education) and polite. Whatever the nutty origins and strictures (no tea or coffee, but Diet Coke is ok?) of their beliefs, I have a lot of respect for the people who come out of the system.

1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1893428?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con...

Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Jack and Jill Mormons in Utah where I lived for a while, and folks there as well whom had gotten themselves stricken from the records. I also learned from native Utahns that they had been ostracized in high school for not being part of the LDS community. It happens, we're all human. All we can try to do is do better. I did meet many fine folks there as well, among the best the world has to offer.

Fair enough. I grew up outside of Utah, and having spent a number of years living in Utah I must admit that it has people that haven't ever learned how to have a positive relationship with somebody of a different belief system. It's not nearly as big of a problem outside of Utah though.

I've spent a lot of time in Utah and I know people who have been cut off from family because they choose to leave the church.

Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation? As a member the LDS church, I have never been urged to shun those who have left, and find the idea extremely deplorable.

Many Jack and Jill Mormons in Utah where I lived for a while, and folks there as well whom had gotten themselves stricken from the records. I also learned from native Utahns that they had been ostracized in high school for not being part of the LDS community. It happens, we're all human. All we can try to do is do better. I did meet many fine folks there as well, among the best the world has to offer.

There's a big difference between "some adherents do this" and "the Church urges and encourages [shunning]". The exact opposite is the case. The Church heartily discourages shunning and teaches people that their good example and continued friendliness is even more important for people who've gone off the path than people who are still on it, children and relatives not excluded.

Children taking foray outside of the faith's bounds is by no means rare. It happens all the time in Utah. Many faithful adults in Utah were such teenagers/young adults themselves and understand that patience and kindness will win the day and help the child find the path back.

Check anti-Mormon forums and they can't stop whining that, far from being shunned, publicly embarrassed, or harmed, the Church continues to send welcoming representatives to ask if they'd like to come back. They also regularly complain that their own family members continue to invite them back. I'm sure that can get annoying after you've made your wishes clear, but it's basically the opposite of shunning.

In my large extended Mormon family (14 aunts and uncles, over 50 first cousins, hundreds of second cousins, etc), probably 65-70% of them no longer practice the faith. I don't know of a single individual who has been shunned. Everyone continues to be welcome to all family functions, everyone continues to discuss and share. The process of someone leaving the faith is not easy and may be painful for both sides, but cutting off communication/shunning people is heavily discouraged, and it doesn't happen often.

Some faiths do require or encourage shunning, including Jehovah's Witnesses, whom Mormons are often confused with because both use door-to-door missionaries, but Mormonism is not one of them. It's a very important distinction.

I lived in Utah for a long time and worked with many mixed Mormon/non-Mormon groups. Everyone seems to get along very well and respect each other despite differing beliefs (with only a few very rare exceptions).

Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#65
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. I grew up outside of Utah, and having spent a number of years living in Utah I must admit that it has people that haven't ever learned how to have a positive relationship with somebody of a different belief system. It's not nearly as big of a problem outside of Utah though.

I've spent a lot of time in Utah and I know people who have been cut off from family because they choose to leave the church.

There are people who do it. The Church advises them not to.

Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come at this as an active Mormon, but I see a consistent effort on the part of the leadership to make it clear that shunning shouldn't happen. I definitely see individuals with issues on this, but I haven't seen it as institutional, even though I've had a number of family members leave the church.

Well, as long as you don't count BYU...

All universities have codes of conduct and expel students who violate them. Everyone who enrolls at BYU knows that BYU students are expected to behave in accordance with the Church's values while they're students. No one has a right to go to a specific university, much less a private one like BYU. Getting kicked out of BYU for breaking rules you'd explicitly and knowingly agreed to is not the same thing as shunning. I'm not seeing a problem here?

Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, as long as you don't count BYU...

All universities have codes of conduct and expel students who violate them. Everyone who enrolls at BYU knows that BYU students are expected to behave in accordance with the Church's values while they're students. No one has a right to go to a specific university, much less a private one like BYU. Getting kicked out of BYU for breaking rules you'd explicitly and knowingly agreed to is not the same thing as shunning.…

It's a tad more difficult when one realizes they don't believe in the church when they've already gone through most of BYU. Or break the Honor Code by coming out as gay or transgendered (and expressing themselves).

These individuals are not far enough to get a degree, but far enough so that they'd lose years of effort if they were to be kicked out. Depending on the situation, BYU doesn't allow you to keep your transcript for transference to another university, which is difficult enough as it is. Maybe they believed in the church when they joined. Maybe they didn't and they were simply pressured in by family or friends (all of your Mormon friends are going to BYU, so why shouldn't you?) I've seen the "kicked out and can't transfer" happen on two separate occasions, one of which was a good friend, from these policies and for differing reasons.

I'm aware that's simply how the rules work. I'm saying the rules suck. To these people, it seems like they're saying "You decided to be who you are and stop lying to everyone that you believe? Well good luck with life, because we're going to make it as difficult for you as possible." Whereas, if they continued lying and went to church every week, and told the bishop "Yeah, I've paid full tithing. Yeah, I still believe in the Church.", they'd not have any of these problems. Dishonesty is being rewarded. It's not just the going to church. It's the requirement of belief, which can change over time and can screw people over that none of these other universities' codes of conducts would otherwise do (barring extreme circumstances).

Apparently there have been some recent changes, though, for people who leave the church while at BYU:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865660524/BYU-adjusts-hon...

So that's better. Not great, but better.

Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All universities have codes of conduct and expel students who violate them. Everyone who enrolls at BYU knows that BYU students are expected to behave in accordance with the Church's values while they're students. No one has a right to go to a specific university, much less a private one like BYU. Getting kicked out of BYU for breaking rules you'd explicitly and knowingly agreed to is not the same thing as shunning.…

It's a tad more difficult when one realizes they don't believe in the church when they've already gone through most of BYU. Or break the Honor Code by coming out as gay or transgendered (and expressing themselves). These individuals are not far enough to get a degree, but far enough so that they'd lose years of effort if they were to be kicked out. Depending on the situation, BYU doesn't allow you to keep your transc…

In Mormon doctrine it's not a sin to come out and be honest about your experiences with sexuality and gender identity. It is sinful to engage in homosexual behavior. One does not risk Church discipline (including expulsion from BYU) merely by discussing his or her feelings/"being honest".

You also don't have to be a believing Mormon to go to BYU. Non-members do have to pay a different rate for tuition and you do have to have a valid ecclesiastical endorsement from a bishop and stake president and be willing to adhere to the Honor Code, but otherwise it shouldn't be a problem to admit that you no longer believe (and IMO it's much healthier for everyone if people are honest about this). Resignation from the Church is a different matter than lost belief.

Whether one continues to believe or not, he/she should be willing and able to see through the contractual commitment made to the university when his/her beliefs were different. Commitments are not worth anything if you can just say "my beliefs changed; ergo, I am exempt."

We all have to put up with things that we've agreed to and no longer feel are beneficial to us, at least until the term of the agreement expires. I'd say a college student experiencing this is a good opportunity for character development that will serve the student well after graduation.

Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you could help me understand how a bunch of anonymous rancor on Reddit acts as a citation that proves your previous commentary. I'm looking for a scholarly citation. Not opinion and blither.

It's funny, you just see anonymous rancor, but I see people finally breaking free from their shackles and stepping out into the light. It's truly beautiful.

I didn't ask your opinion, I asked you to cite your statements with scholarly citations. I'm utterly uninterested in your opinion. If you are unable to back up your commentary with documented facts, please say so, instead of flailing around in irrelevance.

Re: ‘MormonWikileaks’ website launched, seeking transparency in LDS Church

#70
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny, you just see anonymous rancor, but I see people finally breaking free from their shackles and stepping out into the light. It's truly beautiful.

Please keep religious flamewars off HN.

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