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Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

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Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#61

Post by Spooky23 »

samspenc wrote: post #19
Spooky23 wrote: post #7

Senior leadership is a club. People like to work with their friends, and the qualification to be a high level person in many situations has low correlation to skill. Once you get in the club, you move up. I think South Asian asians do better here as many have excellent language skills. East Asians have a disadvantage there, and cultural friction makes it hard for "ABC" chinese. IMO it's less a glass ceiling for asian…

> cultural friction makes it hard for "ABC" chinese Can you clarify what you mean by "cultural friction"? I always thought that "ABCs" and "ABCDs" (Indians born in the US) were better at integrating with workplaces here than those coming from Asia?

I'm not an expert on this (Not a psychologist, don't play one on TV), but I took a lot of East Asian studies classes and did a fairly substantial research project as an undergrad on the topic. Our team interviewed about 120 young Chinese people at our university and neighboring schools. About 75% were ABC, 25% immigrants. As I recall, the dominant theme from the ABC kids was a dichotomy of different expectations and pressures.

Examples:

- They found themselves in a position of go-between with folks outside their family at a young age. One person described being the translator for their dad in buying a car at age 10.

- They had an intense pressure to succeed. They felt that family was struggling mostly to provide them with the tools for success. One person's mother worked 90 hours a week in traditional immigrant gigs at a laundromat (pressing shirts overnight) and restaurant.

- Simultaneously, the older generation of grandparents and family abroad saw them as decadent americans. People outside the family saw them as foreigners -- they would be asked in the street if they spoke english or knew about America. Many described rebuke for their clothing, differences in education, etc. A few talked about over-compensating and trying to be "the ultimate white kid", but not really identifying with that persona.

I walked away from that project with a deep and profound respect for the folks we talked to and the differences in perspective and even thought process. My grandparents were immigrants and talked to me often about their experience... but being an Irish immigrant in 1940s NYC, while a struggle is a very different when you're bridging language and big cultural gaps. My parents, aunts and uncles very clearly identified as Americans, and nobody inside of outside the family questioned that.

Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#62

Post by sushid »

EdHominem wrote: post #55
sushid wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can categorically say that (but are welcome to make that accusation). Are you saying that because we as a society make comparisons to Hitler, it's okay to call an Asian woman in a leadership position something like "Chairman Mao?" If a black person were compared to Mugabe, is that also racist? What if you compared an Italian person to Mussolini? is that racist? You can ask more asinine questions but…

> Are you saying that because we as a society make comparisons to Hitler, it's okay to call an Asian woman in a leadership position something like "Chairman Mao?" Are you trying to guilt trip everyone by making it seem like mocking power is a racist thing just because people of many races are involved? Rather than this passive aggressive attempt to trap someone, why don't you come out and simply say that you think it…

Wow, I didn't expect anyone to reply to those specific examples. My point was that they're asinine. Context matters and those situations are clearly vague enough that it's doesn't warrant any further discussion.

In Pao's context, the comparisons drawn does suggest a racist undertone, an issue the parent commenter in my post seems to try and skirt around by asking another question.

Basically, you're literally missing my point. I'm pointing at the moon and you're too busying looking at my finger.

As an aside, it's hilarious to me that you think it's accommodating to compare Italians to Mussolini (over Mao or other dictators due to their shared cultural connection).

Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#63

Post by concinds »

concinds wrote: post #47
jeffdavis wrote: post #38

Why do we expect uniform outcomes from diverse people? Say two groups are different enough that, when you put them together, you call that "diversity". Why do you expect them to be statistically identical when you divide the groups apart again? Prejudice in career advancement and other important decisions is bad, of course. People should be judged on their own merits, not group statistics. But that doesn't mean that…

This. Why should America reflect world diversity? And how could it? Are there not enough whites in executive positions in Asia? The question doesn't make sense, because "enough" is a normative question and it's impossible to find a metric that's truly "fair". Equality-of-outcome politics is one of the most dogmatic and dangerous movements in recent years, and it's incredible that it gained acceptance in all elite cir…

BTW, adding another idea I just got:

Big data is about to take over the world. We'll have deep knowledge of even the most minute differences in outcome differences. Equality-of-outcome doctrine + big data is a recipe for disaster. You think politics are polarized right now? You ain't seen nothing yet.

It's important to measure what's important. If you're trying to lose weight, and measure your weight every morning (outcome), and you see it's stagnating, you'll be discouraged. If you knew that you had lost some fat and gained tons of muscle, you'd be much more encouraged. What you measure ends up controlling you.

Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#64

Post by mbrameld »

sushid wrote: post #46
mbrameld wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it racist to compare a white male leader to Hitler?

I don't think you can categorically say that (but are welcome to make that accusation). Are you saying that because we as a society make comparisons to Hitler, it's okay to call an Asian woman in a leadership position something like "Chairman Mao?" If a black person were compared to Mugabe, is that also racist? What if you compared an Italian person to Mussolini? is that racist? You can ask more asinine questions but…

You're right, context matters. In the case of Pao, the fact that the names Mao and Pao are so similar is the more important context. If Ellen Pao was any other race she would have still been called Chairman Pao because the point of the comparison isn't to point out that Pao and Mao are the same race.

Did you think it's the Asian-ness of Pao that was being called out when people called her Chairman Pao? Or was it her leadership style? Do you think if she was Asian but her last name was Titler that she would have still been called Chairman Titler because she's Asian?

Not every comment made about a minority is racist. Context matters.

Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#65

Post by mbrameld »

sushid wrote: post #62
EdHominem wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying that because we as a society make comparisons to Hitler, it's okay to call an Asian woman in a leadership position something like "Chairman Mao?" Are you trying to guilt trip everyone by making it seem like mocking power is a racist thing just because people of many races are involved? Rather than this passive aggressive attempt to trap someone, why don't you come out and simply say that you think it…

Wow, I didn't expect anyone to reply to those specific examples. My point was that they're asinine. Context matters and those situations are clearly vague enough that it's doesn't warrant any further discussion. In Pao's context, the comparisons drawn does suggest a racist undertone, an issue the parent commenter in my post seems to try and skirt around by asking another question. Basically, you're literally missing…

You're focused so hard on the moon while everybody else has been talking about the stars the whole time.

Pao sounds a lot like Mao. It would regardless of the race of the person with the name Pao. Mao was an oppressive dictator. The people that called Pao Chairman Pao weren't doing it because she's Asian, they were doing it because they didn't agree with her leadership style and were comparing it to the style of an oppressive dictator.

You are the one who saw it as a racial thing, the problem is with you.

Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#66

Post by mc32 »

hirsin wrote: post #39
sametmax wrote: post #18

How many white or black do you see in a leadership position in China ? In India ? In Thailand ? This is not an american thing.

I'd place a bet that relative to the Chinese, Indian, or Thai citizenry, whites are overrepresented in management positions. And talk about comparing apples and oranges - India is less than 3% "non-brown" including SE/E Asian, black, and white. China, 7%. Thailand, 1-2%. The US is >35% non-white, which is why under-representation shows and matters so much. Chinese/Indian/Thai management and government look a lot like…

I think you're making a mistake in looking at color to investigate bias. All those countries have internal minorities who superficially might look similar to you but are not to locals. And government does not always look like those proportions.

Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#67

Post by hirsin »

mc32 wrote: post #66
hirsin wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd place a bet that relative to the Chinese, Indian, or Thai citizenry, whites are overrepresented in management positions. And talk about comparing apples and oranges - India is less than 3% "non-brown" including SE/E Asian, black, and white. China, 7%. Thailand, 1-2%. The US is >35% non-white, which is why under-representation shows and matters so much. Chinese/Indian/Thai management and government look a lot like…

I think you're making a mistake in looking at color to investigate bias. All those countries have internal minorities who superficially might look similar to you but are not to locals. And government does not always look like those proportions.

Being part Indian I'm well aware of the different ethnicities. That said, a more nuanced answer likely wouldn't have meant much to someone engaging in whataboutism

Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#68

Post by voidr »

Lot of these studies overlook the fact that it might have more to do with culture than race, also, I didn't see them try to do their experiments in reverse, maybe 'Asians' have bad stereotypes towards others that set them back as well.

> As the population of workers in the United States changes, so too should models for leaders.

There is no proof for this, maybe there is a reason why in general us white boys are better at leading people. What people overlook as well is that leadership is not just unicorns and rainbows, as a leader you will get a ton of abuse from your bosses and have to deal with the complaints of your subordinates, maybe white men in general are just better at handling this.

Maybe we would be better off with more 'Asian' or 'women' leaders, but maybe not, there is no proof that having a white men majority in leadership roles is a bad thing for society.

> In the meantime, businesses should focus on determining the competencies needed to fulfill a leadership job and then select leaders who fit the requirements rather than leadership stereotypes. If we do this, it is likely that more minorities and women will reach the top.

It's not always the most competent people who ascend to leadership roles. There is a good reason for this: the most highly skilled people sometimes just lack social skills and as a result would be lousy leaders.

I'd wish there would be studies that would look at people in a rock, paper and scissors kind of way that would ignore race and focus on culture instead, something like Myers–Briggs.

Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#69

Post by terda12 »

koolba wrote: post #37
terda12 wrote: post #4

I'm not a business leader by any means so keep that in mind. I'm an Asian, and I don't see this as a problem tbh. American leaders have, historically, tend to be white men (think the first 49 presidents). We're definitely starting to see diversity in leadership positions. Obama, Sundar Pichai of Google, Satya Nadella of Microsoft, Yishan Wong/Ellen Pao of Reddit are some examples that come to my mind. Even Ellen Pao,…

> American leaders have, historically, tend to be white men (think the first 49 presidents). You mean 43 US presidents. President Obama is number 44.

Yes, my bad. Must have been confusing # of states with # of presidents

Re: Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions?

#70

Post by chrisco255 »

nylonstrung wrote: post #50
chrisco255 wrote: post #26

Statistical fallacies abound in this article. One thought I had while reading it, is that what is the average tenure in those companies among Asians vs. whites? It can take years to get into leadership roles. Leadership numbers are lagging indicators. A lot of immigration has occurred in the last 15 years, especially with the H1-B visas and my theory is that Asian makeup of companies has increased steadily in that ti…

Do you think Silicon Valley had a shortage of Asians in 2000? The thought process behind what you said is correct but not in light of the fact that Asians have been one of the most educated groups in the country for over 20s years. There still is a severe underrepresentation even when you factor that into account

I don't think the percentage of entry-level technical employees was 27% in 2000, based on immigration trends, I highly doubt it.
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