I don't really want to comment - but I'd just say to anyone (including the writer of this article) to imagine someone artificially limiting the impact of your favorite platform of free expression. Hell just turn the mental corner and consider your arguments FOR net neutrality. Or try to recall your disappointment every time you read about some site being banned in China or Iran. To China and Iran - facebook is a "dis…
> To China and Iran - facebook is a "disruptive community." To use reddit's language. There is a vast difference between the government banning you and reddit banning you (which they are not actually doing here, but for the sake of argument). You have the right to free expression. You do not have the right to free expression on someone else's platform . reddit is not the Internet - if reddit does not like what you sa…
Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
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Re: Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
They have, overwhelmingly. The problem is it's an anonymous platform and bans are irrelevant for most internet users today. This was all nicely summarized by John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory in 2004.
Pardon, I should have been clearer - ban the subreddit.
Re: Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
#63I would hardly call this an apology. Also kind-of bold of him to use this as a platform to implement new abusive rules. I don't like the subreddit, but selective enforcement and targeting a single community is very toxic to what little trust I had left in the reddit admins.
The problem is they aren't their own little community. They actively target, brigade (large group upvoting/downvoting), and intentionally troll other communities with their only goal being to fuck with people and overwhelmingly push their rhetoric. Reddit strives to have a positive community and when you let the trolls run the system, you end up with an utter cesspool (e.g. https://voat.co/ ), and that kills your com…
If you post something that doesn't conform to the current left-leaning narrative, you will be down voted by massive amounts of users because of your beliefs.
I don't see much difference than these brigades. Except it's done by 75% of the community, rather than the bottom 1%. A minority subreddit is being discriminated against and blamed for all of the bad behavior on Reddit.
I suppose the CEO isn't all that much different that the people on the alt-right.
"Reddit strives to have a positive community and when you let the trolls run the system"
Yeah, well, if this is really the case and not just a childish political stunt, why are only Trump-related groups targeted?
I'm really tired of a 'positive community' being used an excuse to stifle opposing political opinions. It's becoming really clear that it only has to do with politics based on the abhorrent behavior of site owners and moderators (the CEO purposely altered user comments that he doesn't like. He should have been fired on the spot).
"Reddit (nor Twitter) is under no obligation to be a platform for free speech, and it's completely within their right to dictate who gets to participate and what they're allowed to discuss."
So it's fine for private organizations to discriminate against people simply based on their political beliefs? Do you really want to live in a world where this is accepted?
I find that this is being used an excuse to silence divisive political viewpoints and left-leaning organizations are purging their sites of anyone that disagrees with them.
Most left-leaning media sites have banned all comments for exactly this reason.
Lately, the only sites that are truly free are the right-leaning ones. Fox news, for instance, doesn't ban anyone for merely stating a political opinion...unless you are harassing other users (stating an opinion isn't harassment).
The irony is that people voted Trump because of this behavior by the media (which has slowly been getting worse since the 90s). Continuing to do this will not only create more of a divided nation, but many will be more likely to re-elect Trump.
Re: Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is they aren't their own little community. They actively target, brigade (large group upvoting/downvoting), and intentionally troll other communities with their only goal being to fuck with people and overwhelmingly push their rhetoric. Reddit strives to have a positive community and when you let the trolls run the system, you end up with an utter cesspool (e.g. https://voat.co/ ), and that kills your com…
> They actively target, brigade (large group upvoting/downvoting), and intentionally troll other communities with their only goal being to fuck with people and overwhelmingly push their rhetoric. [citation needed] I'm there every day and I don't know about that, quite the opposite. We don't link outside the sub, heck we are not even allowed to mention /r/politics in post titles under threat from Reddit admins. It is…
(Admittedly I don't know the order of your downvotes, your edit, and the replies to your comment, but this is a pattern that happens all discussions about that subreddit. "There's no evidence for X" posters maintain their stance by simply ignoring all the evidence that gets readily supplied. It's absolutely infuriating to deal with.)
Re: Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a liberal - its been my view to respect and fight for anyone's right to say whatever they want, regardless of my own views. If there are bugs with the reddit platform that are being exploited, there would be no reason to "prevent stickied posts from showing on r/all"
It's pretty clearly explained in Spez's post that it's a loophole, not a bug. The loophole is that there's an override for how sticky posts show in /all, used to elevate topical events -- which was being abused, against the spirit of the override, by pretty much only that one subreddit, for different purposes. There is probably a technical solution to this but it's probably complicated and this bandaid gets the job d…
Re: Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's pretty clearly explained in Spez's post that it's a loophole, not a bug. The loophole is that there's an override for how sticky posts show in /all, used to elevate topical events -- which was being abused, against the spirit of the override, by pretty much only that one subreddit, for different purposes. There is probably a technical solution to this but it's probably complicated and this bandaid gets the job d…
The bandaid was to allow people to filter subs themselves (which is great). Writing code to target a specific community crosses the line
I especially think it was acceptable because it solves the urgent problem with a quick solution, whereas a technical solution would take a lot longer, and I do strongly believe that the problem was very urgent.
Re: Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
#67* The steps to allow for censorship in the software and diminish the visibility of asshattery is a necessary thing. * It is unfortunate that it wasn't done before. * It is a pattern that has repeated itself many times over the decades. * Read A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy. * Web 2.0 puts too much work on too few people.
Long version:
One of the talks that was passed around (I think it was Everything2 that introduced me to it, but I could be wrong) is A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy ( http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html ). This goes to the problems and some necessary designs for social software - reddit is one such example.
The story in that talk that this current episode reminds me of is that of Communitree:
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> Communitree was founded on the principles of open access and free dialogue. "Communitree" -- the name just says "California in the Seventies." And the notion was, effectively, throw off structure and new and beautiful patterns will arise.
> And, indeed, as anyone who has put discussion software into groups that were previously disconnected has seen, that does happen. Incredible things happen. The early days of Echo, the early days of usenet, the early days of Lucasfilms Habitat, over and over again, you see all this incredible upwelling of people who suddenly are connected in ways they weren't before.
> And then, as time sets in, difficulties emerge. In this case, one of the difficulties was occasioned by the fact that one of the institutions that got hold of some modems was a high school. And who, in 1978, was hanging out in the room with the computer and the modems in it, but the boys of that high school. And the boys weren't terribly interested in sophisticated adult conversation. They were interested in fart jokes. They were interested in salacious talk. They were interested in running amok and posting four-letter words and nyah-nyah-nyah, all over the bulletin board.
> And the adults who had set up Communitree were horrified, and overrun by these students. The place that was founded on open access had too much open access, too much openness. They couldn't defend themselves against their own users. The place that was founded on free speech had too much freedom. They had no way of saying "No, that's not the kind of free speech we meant."
> But that was a requirement. In order to defend themselves against being overrun, that was something that they needed to have that they didn't have, and as a result, they simply shut the site down.
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To me, Reddit is facing this exact same problem. It wants to be a place for free speech, but the right type of free speech. It also hasn't designed the necessary infrastructure of code to allow the community of not t_d to defend itself and maintain the type of content that that core community wants.
And thus, backchannel slack channels to try to get people to tone it down a bit - because the software didn't support the necessary structures to prevent it from happening.
That passage quoted above goes on:
> Now you could ask whether or not the founders' inability to defend themselves from this onslaught, from being overrun, was a technical or a social problem. Did the software not allow the problem to be solved? Or was it the social configuration of the group that founded it, where they simply couldn't stomach the idea of adding censorship to protect their system. But in a way, it doesn't matter, because technical and social issues are deeply intertwined. There's no way to completely separate them.
> What matters is, a group designed this and then was unable, in the context they'd set up, partly a technical and partly a social context, to save it from this attack from within. And attack from within is what matters. Communitree wasn't shut down by people trying to crash or syn-flood the server. It was shut down by people logging in and posting, which is what the system was designed to allow. The technological pattern of normal use and attack were identical at the machine level, so there was no way to specify technologically what should and shouldn't happen. Some of the users wanted the system to continue to exist and to provide a forum for discussion. And other of the users, the high school boys, either didn't care or were actively inimical. And the system provided no way for the former group to defend itself from the latter.
> Now, this story has been written many times. It's actually frustrating to see how many times it's been written. You'd hope that at some point that someone would write it down, and they often do, but what then doesn't happen is other people don't read it.
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I believe that the failing of Web 2.0 is that most people don't care. User moderated content is a great thing - when its moderated. Without that moderation (which often falls disproportionately on a very, very, small group) you end up with doing tech support for people who are either asses to the world or intentionally trying to make your job suck in a very hostile way.
Back channels and trying to appeal to individuals doesn't scale. The software needs to support the necessary tools of moderation (which include censorship and banning).
Re: Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
The subreddit in question manipulates the algorithm in bad faith and bans any sort of dissent or disagreement. They're not attacking free expression but trying to reign in abuse of their platform. Nobody really knows what "liberal" means because it's been used in several very opposite ways in different times and places.
I don't buy the argument that they are exploiting anything - but I do recognize that their community is very overly active but I wouldn't call that exploiting
Just google – the_donald upvote script – to get an idea. Several tools were released for users to upvote or downvote everything targeting a subreddit or user. It's a sort of grassroots vote manipulation scheme.
Re: Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> To China and Iran - facebook is a "disruptive community." To use reddit's language. There is a vast difference between the government banning you and reddit banning you (which they are not actually doing here, but for the sake of argument). You have the right to free expression. You do not have the right to free expression on someone else's platform . reddit is not the Internet - if reddit does not like what you sa…
Fiber lines are someone else's platform. If Comcast was limiting access to huffingtonpost.com it would be their right as its their platform. I don't think I'm confusing anything.
Re: Reddit cracks down on abuse as CEO apologizes for trolling the trolls
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
> To China and Iran - facebook is a "disruptive community." To use reddit's language. There is a vast difference between the government banning you and reddit banning you (which they are not actually doing here, but for the sake of argument). You have the right to free expression. You do not have the right to free expression on someone else's platform . reddit is not the Internet - if reddit does not like what you sa…
Fiber lines are someone else's platform. If Comcast was limiting access to huffingtonpost.com it would be their right as its their platform. I don't think I'm confusing anything.