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Ring, officially a GNU package

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Re: Ring, officially a GNU package

#61

Post by stonogo »

belorn wrote: post #38
stonogo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know he said things, but I also know the gcc frontend/backend hard wall is very real, entirely political, and is very frustrating. What good is reading his post when you can see how core GNU projects are actually run?

Who is the maintainer of GCC? This is not news to me, but its the maintainer of a project that decide over their project. Its like how the CEO of Microsoft do not control what Apple do, nor vice verse. Two projects with different people in charge, makes different decision, and has different priorities. The good thing about reading other posts is that you might realize that not every project is run the same way. If yo…

The GCC issue itself is not the point. It serves as a direct counterexample to the claims you and he are making about how GNU projects are run.

Maintainers of low-impact projects have more leeway. If your project matters to GNU/FSF leadership, you will have less freedom to make your own decisions.

It's as simple as that.

I don't really need this part about "complain in an HN thread that has nothing to do." I'm totally uninterested in being demeaned for trying to explain a point you don't like. Please try to avoid personal attacks and understand that the GCC maintainers already expressed this desire and did work toward it and were denied this choice for political reasons. This situation is directly and unequivocally related to the discussion at hand.

Re: Ring, officially a GNU package

#62

Post by belorn »

geofft wrote: post #44
belorn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is the maintainer of GCC? This is not news to me, but its the maintainer of a project that decide over their project. Its like how the CEO of Microsoft do not control what Apple do, nor vice verse. Two projects with different people in charge, makes different decision, and has different priorities. The good thing about reading other posts is that you might realize that not every project is run the same way. If yo…

> its the maintainer of a project that decide over their project Except that's not true once you've made your project a GNU project, which is exactly my point. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnutls-devel/2012-12/msg0... (RMS telling the GnuTLS maintainer they can't move their project out of GNU) https://lwn.net/Articles/629259/ (GCC maintainers want certain priorities, RMS overrules) https://lists.gnu.org/archive…

> RMS telling the GnuTLS maintainer they can't move their project out of GNU (and still call themselves GnuTLS.

Trademark is not technical decision-making. Hurd can not call themselves the linux kernel, blaming Linus for "restricting their technical decision-making options" when he would object. That a project do not want to rename themselves is understandable, but such is how trademark work.

> GCC maintainers want certain priorities, RMS (as member of the GCC steering committee) overrules

GCC does not have a GCC maintainer that decide over the project. It has a steering committee, similar to Debian technical committee, which designed role is to overrule maintainers. Stallman is also part of that committee, while other people of FSF is not. There is no requirement of GNU projects to have a steering committee, and no rules that dictate that Stallman must be part of the committee if one exist.

> Emacs maintainer threatening to fork Emacs (over the GCC decision)

Which they are allowed to do. Emacs was founded by Stallman and what is called "GNU Emacs", as a trademark issue, will likely continue rest with him. There is no "technical decision-making options" involved there, and the dispute is not about any code involving Emacs. If the fork ended up successful it would likely replace the code of GNU Emacs as has happened in the past.

> GNU Libreboot changes name to Libreboot

Again, trademark and no technical decision-making options. Libreboot is now one project, and GNU libreboot might be one. People can fight about who is the fork and who is the original, but it has no technical-decision aspects to it. Both projects can write code and add any feature they wish.

The only thing that Stallman and FSF decide is about the GNU project and the GNU trademark. Technical aspects in each project is the maintainers or what ever community structure that they have chosen. Some are committee based, other a BDFL or project maintainer, and some are just flat structure of several maintainer each holding only one vote in the decision process. Simple projects generally has a single maintainer and can make all the technical-decisions themselves.

Re: Ring, officially a GNU package

#63

Post by strcat »

alphapapa wrote: post #59
brute wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate? http://ring.cx has a 301 forward to https://ring.cx , and all the downloads seem to use https as well. Where is it using plain http? Or was the forward added in the last hour?

Couldn't a MitM attack skip the redirect?

Sure, although not in mainstream browsers if there's HSTS + HSTS preloading, which can be easily adopted by any site. Outside browsers, HSTS is usually not supported. It was actually implemented by wget, but without preloading, so it only works after first use which is much less useful.

Re: Ring, officially a GNU package

#64

Post by belorn »

stonogo wrote: post #61
belorn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is the maintainer of GCC? This is not news to me, but its the maintainer of a project that decide over their project. Its like how the CEO of Microsoft do not control what Apple do, nor vice verse. Two projects with different people in charge, makes different decision, and has different priorities. The good thing about reading other posts is that you might realize that not every project is run the same way. If yo…

The GCC issue itself is not the point. It serves as a direct counterexample to the claims you and he are making about how GNU projects are run. Maintainers of low-impact projects have more leeway. If your project matters to GNU/FSF leadership, you will have less freedom to make your own decisions. It's as simple as that. I don't really need this part about "complain in an HN thread that has nothing to do." I'm totall…

You don't need to use personal attacks just because I'm trying to explain a point you don't like. I am only trying to help you understand.

GCC is run by a committee which stated role is to overrule maintainers (https://gcc.gnu.org/steering.html). It has nothing to do with Ring, nor does Ring have a steering committee. If ring had a steering committee, and if stallman was part of that committee, then he would be part of the technical-decision making process. But he is not, nor is FSF, and there is no such committee for Ring.

Re: Ring, officially a GNU package

#65

Post by geofft »

belorn wrote: post #64
stonogo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GCC issue itself is not the point. It serves as a direct counterexample to the claims you and he are making about how GNU projects are run. Maintainers of low-impact projects have more leeway. If your project matters to GNU/FSF leadership, you will have less freedom to make your own decisions. It's as simple as that. I don't really need this part about "complain in an HN thread that has nothing to do." I'm totall…

You don't need to use personal attacks just because I'm trying to explain a point you don't like. I am only trying to help you understand. GCC is run by a committee which stated role is to overrule maintainers ( https://gcc.gnu.org/steering.html ). It has nothing to do with Ring, nor does Ring have a steering committee. If ring had a steering committee, and if stallman was part of that committee, then he would be par…

Sorry, 'stonogo was not making a personal attack. The personal attack was this sentence: "If you have an axe to grind with GCC over their priorities, maybe you should try convince them that your priorities are more important than theirs, rather than complain in a HN thread that has nothing to do with having proprietary compiler modifications to GCC." Calling something an "axe to grind" is an argument over the making of the argument, not a response to the argument itself. (As is calling something "a point you don't like", as opposed to a matter of disagreement.) See also http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html .

'stonogo and I believe that the points you are making are incorrect. That is not a personal attack, an assuming that you must be correct and need to help us understand is a great way to pull the argument back down into personal attacks.

So, why does GCC have a steering committee and Ring not? Is it possible that Ring could have a steering committee in the future? Can that happen without the enthusiastic consent of the maintainers?

Re: Ring, officially a GNU package

#66

Post by davexunit »

snvzz wrote: post #34

While I'm sure it's well-intended, it does have a couple of fatal flaws. * Lack of full forward secrecy means logged network logs can be decrypted in the future if an endpoint key is ever compromised. * e2e encryption is optional, due to legacy SIP support. This is extremely dangerous as it will no doubt lead to false sense of security, with users assuming they're safe just because Ring is the program they're talking…

The Tox community is absolutely toxic, no pun intended. I have abandoned that ship.

Re: Ring, officially a GNU package

#67

Post by belorn »

geofft wrote: post #65
belorn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to use personal attacks just because I'm trying to explain a point you don't like. I am only trying to help you understand. GCC is run by a committee which stated role is to overrule maintainers ( https://gcc.gnu.org/steering.html ). It has nothing to do with Ring, nor does Ring have a steering committee. If ring had a steering committee, and if stallman was part of that committee, then he would be par…

Sorry, 'stonogo was not making a personal attack. The personal attack was this sentence: "If you have an axe to grind with GCC over their priorities, maybe you should try convince them that your priorities are more important than theirs, rather than complain in a HN thread that has nothing to do with having proprietary compiler modifications to GCC." Calling something an "axe to grind" is an argument over the making…

"being demeaned for trying to explain a point you don't like" was a personal attack, since there was no intention of demeaning. The statement in your quote text was that this is not the place for criticizing GCC over what their steering group has decide, as neither Ring or the GNU project was involved in that internal decision between GCC steering committee and GCC maintainers (a steering committee which is made from current and historical GCC maintainers).

> Is it possible that Ring could have a steering committee in the future? Can that happen without the enthusiastic consent of the maintainers?

A steering group, or for that matter any form of leadership structure can only pop into existence if the project itself decide to create one. If we look at the announcement of the GCC steering group:

  "From its initial conception, the egcs project [now GCC] has strived to organize itself
  in a manner which prevents any particular individual or company from having control
  over the project.

  To that end, when the project was formed several individuals were contacted to
  make decisions for the GCC project.  These individuals come from a variety of
  backgrounds and represent various groups with an interest in the long term health of GCC.

  We feel it is in the best interest of the GCC project at this time to turn this
  informal group into an official steering committee, and to make public its membership.

Re: Ring, officially a GNU package

#68

Post by jhasse »

geofft wrote: post #40
themihai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> limited support for non-free OSes Some believe that's not necessary a bad thing.

Sure. I'm not saying it is; you're welcome to implement that choice voluntarily. What's the benefit of being required to make that choice as part of being a GNU project?

Other people immediately know what your position is on this topic when they hear "GNU".
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