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The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

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Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#61
post #42

This is really funny, because I'm white programmer from California, and I experienced a "hardship" that prevented me from voting four years ago. I admit it was a stupid misunderstanding on my part, but here it goes: I was registered at a polling place in SoCal on election day, but was living in NorCal for school. They didn't let me vote. Proof: "If you moved more than 15 days before the election AND you moved to anot…

They can't vote in local or state elections but you should have been allowed to vote for President. Federal elections just require you to be registered in the state.

If a given voter could vote for President at any polling location in the state, how would you design it so that after someone votes they cannot go to another location and vote again?

With voting limited to your designated polling place, all they have to do is have at each polling place a list of people who are registered to vote there, and check them off as they are let in to vote.

With "vote anywhere" voting, you'd have to have the polling places all coordinating in semi-real time to maintain one big list. If a polling place lost network connectivity they might have to suspend voting there until it is fixed, and in less densely populated areas where polling places might be very far apart that could be a big deal for the people who came to vote at that location.

The semi-real time constraint is that when someone votes at place X, then for each other polling place Y in the state, the knowledge that the person has voted at X must be available at Y in less time than the person can travel from X to Y.

Note that you cannot rely on simply detecting who voted more than once after the fact and disqualifying their votes, because you won't know who they voted for and so won't be able to correct the count.

There are ways to design systems so that you could vote anywhere, with after the fact checking that does allow the count to be corrected instead of semi-real time checking, without having to keep track of who voted for whom, but those would require big changes to how we vote [1]. Until we can do something like that, limiting in-person voting to a designated polling place is probably here to stay.

[1] For example, one could do a system based on a digital cash system. There are digital cash systems where a bank can issue you a digital dollar (basically a string of bits) that has these two properties: (1) the bank can recognize it as a digital dollar they issued when someone tries to deposit it, (2) the bank cannot tell who they issued it to, and (3) if the same digital dollar is deposited twice, the bank then can tell who it was issued to.

Using such a system, election officials could play the role of the bank, setting up two different kinds of such digital dollar systems (I'm assuming a two party race). One system issues "Digital Trump Dollars" and one issues "Digital Clinton Dollars". Each registered voter is issued one Trump dollar and one Clinton dollar. To vote, the voter "spends" the digital dollar for their candidate at any polling place, and simply deletes the digital dollar of the other candidate.

To count, the election officials simply see which candidate has had more of their digital dollars deposited. If someone deposits their candidates digital dollar at more than one polling place (or more than once at the same polling place), the election officials know who they were and they know which candidate's digital dollar it was so that they can correct the count.

Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#62
post #61
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't vote in local or state elections but you should have been allowed to vote for President. Federal elections just require you to be registered in the state.

If a given voter could vote for President at any polling location in the state, how would you design it so that after someone votes they cannot go to another location and vote again? With voting limited to your designated polling place, all they have to do is have at each polling place a list of people who are registered to vote there, and check them off as they are let in to vote. With "vote anywhere" voting, you'd…

I'm only going to address your first sentence -- I wasn't talking about being allowed to literally walk in anywhere and cast an immediate vote; if you were to go to a different precinct than where your registration is you'd still have to cast a provisional ballot so that they can reconcile later and make sure that you didn't cast another ballot somewhere else.

After the election, they consolidate all the provisional ballots, make sure there's only one with your name on it, and that you didn't sign the register in your registered polling place, then they should have opened it and counted your votes for Federal races.

I was only talking about the "being disenfranchised" part of the original post - you have the right to cast a vote on Federal issues as long as you were registered in the state by their deadline.

Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to again avoid your analogies, again because I find them misleading in crucial ways. If your talking about voter fraud via impersonation, I find you have even less of an argument then you did when I assumed you were referring to illegal aliens voting. As I've cited frequently in this thread, stealing an election via in-person vote fraud is an extremely inefficient and difficult way to steal an election. It'…

I didn't argue for any voter ID laws, and I didn't argue that in-person vote fraud happens any more frequently than you think it does. I didn't argue your study was wrong, it's probably right. I'm surprised they even found 31 credible incidents when you have no way of verifying the person says who they say they are when they cast the vote. I also didn't even mention voter fraud via absentee or mail-in ballots. I'll t…

Disagree.

Voter fraud would be noticed when a person goes to the polls and finds out that they have already voted.

Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't argue for any voter ID laws, and I didn't argue that in-person vote fraud happens any more frequently than you think it does. I didn't argue your study was wrong, it's probably right. I'm surprised they even found 31 credible incidents when you have no way of verifying the person says who they say they are when they cast the vote. I also didn't even mention voter fraud via absentee or mail-in ballots. I'll t…

Disagree. Voter fraud would be noticed when a person goes to the polls and finds out that they have already voted.

What if the person(s) being impersonated were known ahead of time to not be voting?

Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. Voter fraud would be noticed when a person goes to the polls and finds out that they have already voted.

What if the person(s) being impersonated were known ahead of time to not be voting?

Do you feel an onus to actually propose a mechanism by which these fraudulent voters can predict the future? I can't tell if you're trying to drag your argument into the absurd or if that actually seems logical to you.

Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the person(s) being impersonated were known ahead of time to not be voting?

Do you feel an onus to actually propose a mechanism by which these fraudulent voters can predict the future? I can't tell if you're trying to drag your argument into the absurd or if that actually seems logical to you.

> Do you feel an onus to actually propose a mechanism by which these fraudulent voters can predict the future?

Actually, yes. It's called voter registration fraud, and it works by registering people who don't actually exist or are not eligible voters.

If you'll accept that we have no way of verifying if someone votes as someone else, and no way of even noticing if that impersonated voter doesn't vote, then any fraudulent voter registration is essentially open season for anyone with the knowledge of it. We wouldn't know about it, and we couldn't know about it unless we actually verified people are who they say they are.

This essentially means the argument that in-person voter fraud doesn't exist needs a big asterisk next to it that says, "assuming no fraudulent voter registration, but if there is some, we have no way at all of measuring how much in-person voter fraud is occurring."

Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#67
post #50
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an opinion piece and says as much in the intro.

Oh I missed that, thanks for the heads up though. I'm not sure why, but I really thought it would be more of game with some actual insight instead of "isn't Trump a bully".

It's not about Donald Trump but about a systematic, multi-year effort by the Republican Party to make it harder for likely Democratic voters to vote.

Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel an onus to actually propose a mechanism by which these fraudulent voters can predict the future? I can't tell if you're trying to drag your argument into the absurd or if that actually seems logical to you.

> Do you feel an onus to actually propose a mechanism by which these fraudulent voters can predict the future? Actually, yes. It's called voter registration fraud, and it works by registering people who don't actually exist or are not eligible voters. If you'll accept that we have no way of verifying if someone votes as someone else, and no way of even noticing if that impersonated voter doesn't vote, then any fraudu…

So now you're shifting the conversation to voter registration fraud, not voting fraud. So it seems you're agreeing with me that the voter id laws are again a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Fortunately, voter registration is a process that can be tightened as is needed, and registrants can be made to show proof of identity, proof of citizenship, and every other proof needed. But to intentionally do a poor job at voter registration so that you may then pass draconian voter id laws is pernicious. But the crucial difference is again the time needed to register voters happens independently of elections, and these results can be contested by all parties well before elections actually occur, not the day of elections.

If we don't try and muddle different concepts, and conflate separate concerns, we again see that voter id laws are unnecessary, onerous, and in reality intended to supress the turnout of minority groups.

Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you feel an onus to actually propose a mechanism by which these fraudulent voters can predict the future? Actually, yes. It's called voter registration fraud, and it works by registering people who don't actually exist or are not eligible voters. If you'll accept that we have no way of verifying if someone votes as someone else, and no way of even noticing if that impersonated voter doesn't vote, then any fraudu…

So now you're shifting the conversation to voter registration fraud, not voting fraud. So it seems you're agreeing with me that the voter id laws are again a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Fortunately, voter registration is a process that can be tightened as is needed, and registrants can be made to show proof of identity, proof of citizenship, and every other proof needed. But to intentionally do a poor j…

> So now you're shifting the conversation to voter registration fraud, not voting fraud. So it seems you're agreeing with me that the voter id laws are again a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

No. A voter ID law would solve the problem of, "any known invalid voter registration can allow untrackable voter impersonation because the impersonator will never be verified."

That is in-person voter fraud. It takes place after fraudulent voter registration, and voter ID stops it. There's no rational interpretation that it doesn't.

> Fortunately, voter registration is a process that can be tightened as is needed, and registrants can be made to show proof of identity, proof of citizenship, and every other proof needed.

But it doesn't, and even that implies no mistakes or corruption takes place. If even a single one does, that's decades of scot-free voter impersonation that can be done. It also assumes fraudulent voter registration hasn't already happened (!!) which is also unverifiable (particularly since states legally can't require voters to verify their citizenship).

> If we don't try and muddle different concepts, and conflate separate concerns, [...]

I'm not muddling them at all! I can't get you to follow logic rationally without claiming racism. Clearly Voter ID would stop impersonation of fraudulently registered voters. That doesn't mean it's the best way to stop it, but it verifiably would, so it's dishonest to claim otherwise.

To give you credit, though, this is a totally fair argument:

> we again see that voter id laws are unnecessary, onerous, and in reality intended to supress the turnout of minority groups.

I mean, it's a stretch to claim intent, but if you state it like this, it's totally reasonable:

> Voter ID laws are unnecessary, onerous, and disproportionately affect minorities. Enacting them would cause more problems than it'd solve.

There it is! Just, you know, leave out the unfair parts:

> In-person voter fraud doesn't happen. Voter ID laws wouldn't fight it. Anyone who disagrees must be racist.

These are the parts that make it tough to have a rational discussion.

Re: The NYT Released an Oregon Trail Style Game about Voter Suppression

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now you're shifting the conversation to voter registration fraud, not voting fraud. So it seems you're agreeing with me that the voter id laws are again a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Fortunately, voter registration is a process that can be tightened as is needed, and registrants can be made to show proof of identity, proof of citizenship, and every other proof needed. But to intentionally do a poor j…

> So now you're shifting the conversation to voter registration fraud, not voting fraud. So it seems you're agreeing with me that the voter id laws are again a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. No. A voter ID law would solve the problem of, "any known invalid voter registration can allow untrackable voter impersonation because the impersonator will never be verified." That is in-person voter fraud. It takes p…

>If even a single one does, that's decades of scot-free voter impersonation that can be done. It also assumes fraudulent voter registration hasn't already happened (!!) which is also unverifiable (particularly since states legally can't require voters to verify their citizenship).

Nothing you said here is true, why are you saying this? Parties can, and regularly do, challenge voter roles, make them appear in person and prove their citizenship and identity[0]. It's also untrue that states can't legally require voters to verify their citizenship, why are you trying to pass this misinformation as true?[1] Lastly, elections are left to the states and local governments - the federal government does not run them.

Again, past your deceit, there are legal ways to prevent, find, and challenge voter registration fraud. The way to prevent voter registration fraud is to prevent voter registration fraud, not try to disenfranchise minorities.

As to your claims these tactics aren't racist, I'm a believer in calling a spade a spade - so we'll have to disagree. But the facts are:

1. Republican party officials __have been found in court to research ways in which blacks vote, then crafting legislation to 'surgically' disenfrachise them__. 2. Republicans have been suing in order to rollback protections of the Voting Rights Act - you know, the act passed by congress by its champion Martin Luther King Jr. 3. Republican voter id laws have been getting struck down in court because they 'have a disproportionate and disparate impact on minority communities'. 4. Republican voter id laws have been empirically shown to disproportionately lower turnout among minority voters in studies[2] 5. Republican governors have been closing dmv's and cutting dmv hours in minority-majority areas, and instructing employees not to advertise or discuss the free ID's that courts have decreed must be available to voters.

I understand that it's fashionable to cry 'race card' every time evidence of racism is presented, but personally I'm of the belief that if something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck - we should call it a duck.

If it makes you feel better, I don't believe that these Republicans are racist, I just think they implement racist laws because blacks largely vote democratic and they'd rather suppress them than actually do the hard work of outreach. But alas, it's largely useless to try and separate their intent from their actions - the end result is that they are seeking to disenfranchise voters based on their skin colors.

[0]https://www.thenation.com/article/north-carolina-republicans... [1]Specifically, the Times reports that the Hancock County Board of Elections and Registration has been “systematically questioning the registrations of more than 180” black residents in Sparta, Georgia “by dispatching deputies with summonses commanding them to appear in person to prove their residence or lose their voting rights.”http://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/a-georgia-town-is-sending-po... [2]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/04/new-e...

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