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KiCad: A commitment to freedom

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Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#61
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our conclusion was that for hobby projects and very simple professional PCBs, KiCad is a great tool, but it's just not enough for even slightly demanding projects (and I'm not even talking about high-frequency design, EMI analysis, and multi-person projects). You are entitled to your opinion, and surely there are more advanced tools, but lots of people do high-frequency design using Kicad. HackRF, from Michael Ossm…

I'm not sure I'd hold up Eagle high as a bar to beat.

It surely isn't, but is a commercial product that get much less heat then Kicad.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#62
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our conclusion was that for hobby projects and very simple professional PCBs, KiCad is a great tool, but it's just not enough for even slightly demanding projects (and I'm not even talking about high-frequency design, EMI analysis, and multi-person projects). You are entitled to your opinion, and surely there are more advanced tools, but lots of people do high-frequency design using Kicad. HackRF, from Michael Ossm…

Can you respond to the specific criticisms of OP then?

Not every discussion has a winner and I'm not Kicad's lawyer. I'm just honestly adding to the discussion, not trying to "win" a debate or anything.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#63
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of your post is Greek: tracks, vias, copper zones. I'm not sure how anyone can make an abstract design for an entire circuit board from scratch, it how to put one together.

> Most of your post is Greek: tracks, vias, copper zones. I'm not sure how anyone can make an abstract design for an entire circuit board from scratch, it how to put one together. I do not understand what you're trying to say.

(Comment moved up in tree as requested.)

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#64

Just used KiCad to design a guitar amplifier, really happy with it. Now I'm designing a PCB, and what's lacking is good part placing and trace routing. I feel like there should be a an algorithmic way to do what I'm doing by hand. It sort of reminds me of the traveling salesman problem.

It is not the travelling salesman problem. I think it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steiner_tree_problem

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#65
post #55
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our conclusion was that for hobby projects and very simple professional PCBs, KiCad is a great tool, but it's just not enough for even slightly demanding projects (and I'm not even talking about high-frequency design, EMI analysis, and multi-person projects). You are entitled to your opinion, and surely there are more advanced tools, but lots of people do high-frequency design using Kicad. HackRF, from Michael Ossm…

I didn't say that it's impossible to do these things in KiCad, it's rather that KiCad doesn't offer a lot of assistance for those scenarios. In the extreme case, you can design your PCB by hand-writing the Gerber files, but the point of an EDA tool is that it should handle the automatable stuff.

I agree that it has wide room for improvements, but I still find it very comparable to Eagle, for example.

But it is in a steady improvement route, while operating in a much harder segment to attract the resources they need than most free/open-source projects: their best users aren't high-level programmers, neither UX experts, and UX experts and high-level programmers aren't their typical users[1].

I still use Altium for my most complex designs, even for reasons beyong those you've posted, but it surely can be used for professional projects beyond the simplest ones, even taking advantage of the automation by learning a few simple patterns.

[1] Except, of course, by coincidence. As a primarily hardware engineer, I'm trying to help by re-learning desktop programming, something I haven't done in years.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#66
post #56
post #4

> Today, KiCad is considered a mature tool for the design of Printed Circuit Boards, featuring some capabilities that match or exceed those of costly proprietary alternatives. Two weeks ago, we evaluated whether we ditch our current proprietary EDA tools in favor of KiCad (my company designs and builds satellite electronics). We liked the user interface (it's not good, but better than the "professional" alternatives)…

Let me present a counter-opinion. I found KiCad to be surprisingly useful, not for super-complex boards, but for significantly more than just the simplest of projects (I'm using it for four-layer boards with controlled impedance tracks and differential pairs). Yes, there are bugs and annoyances. But not enough to shell out 6kEUR or so for the next step up in EDA tools (which would be Altium Designer, and I'm not even…

I basically agree with everything you said, and I don't think we contradict each other. If I were to start an electronics company today, I would almost certainly choose KiCad and use it until I had some serious revenue.

But if demanding electronics are your bread and butter and you have several million Euro revenue per year, saving a couple thousand Euro in license fees by not having a professional EDA tool is hard to justify. KiCad just isn't there yet, though it might be in a few years.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#67
post #11

Everyone who doesn't do PCB design will probably find this a great idea. People who design PCBs will probably wonder when KiCad is going to fix the horrific UX bugs, and go back to using Altium or Eagle in the meantime. KiCad is the StarOffice of the PCB design world. I want to use it, but I can't justify the time working around KiCad's UX issues.

KiCad is the StarOffice of the PCB design world.

That's a good comment. There are two basic classes of UI problems with KiCAD. First, there are the ones that are just classic menu-and-button bad design. The schematic library and footprint library editors have a confusing set of menus and buttons to do what's really a simple open/close/new/save task. There are lots of discussions on forums about this. Those need a rethink of the library UI, a clear design document, and a modest amount of implementation. If that got fixed, the initial KiCAD complaint level would go way down.

The second set of problems is harder. They're in the programs for graphical design. There are four of those - schematic drawing, schematic symbol design, board layout, and board footprint design. Schematic drawing isn't too bad. It has some strange bugs - there's a convention in schematics that you put a dot where wires connect at a 3 or 4 way connection. (Wires which just cross don't connect.) Most schematic drawing programs handle this automatically. KiCAD almost does, but it's possible for a connection dot to become detached from wires, or for wires to connect without a connection dot. This might result in a bad netlist, which matters. A few bug fixes there would be enough to fix up that part of the system.

The schematic symbol and board footprint editors are just really clunky draw programs. They work, but lack basic features such as grouping and cut and paste. Those wouldn't be that hard to fix. Fixing that, plus the library editor UI, would help the project a lot, because KiCAD needs a bigger symbol and footprint library, and you want users to contribute those. Frustrating contributors hurts the project.

The actual board layout program is the hardest problem. Others have written about this. There are some very strange features. There are three graphics modes (classic, OpenGL, and something else). Menu items which have nothing to do with display, such as component auto-placement, change with the mode. You can't automatically spread out components in OpenGL mode. The menu item just isn't there. (Not even greyed out, just gone.) There are also some functions hidden in dialogs under menus which ought to be more visible.

The "Help" menu item just loads a PDF of the tutorial, which isn't too useful.

All this stuff is fixable, but probably not via "hackathons". A UI design document is needed. That's always useful; when the UI design document has to explain some badly designed feature at great length, it's clear there's a problem. Write down exactly how all the schematic symbol and footprint library update functions work, and the mess will be revealed.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#68
post #63
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of your post is Greek: tracks, vias, copper zones. I'm not sure how anyone can make an abstract design for an entire circuit board from scratch, it how to put one together. I do not understand what you're trying to say.

(Comment moved up in tree as requested.)

[deleted]

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many projects across CERN do you think would use KiCad if it were somewhat knocked shape? Going OT but staying on this theme: It seems likely that public money across many governments is spent on closed source software for circuit design. Even probably across the projects in a single developed country I imagine it might be an economy to pay for the software to be modified. Such changes then being a gift to societ…

> "Academics (in the UK) is there any effort towards making free-libre software available through collaboration of different institutes?" I don't work in that field, so I can't answer your question directly, but I can pass on that EAGLE, which is probably KiCad's closest competitor, is available for free for academic institutions: https://cadsoft.io/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAGLE_(program)

I work in the field (another particle accelerator) and I'll tell you outright that a non-commercial license is a no-no for research institutes.

We MUST be able to license the project for commercial parties to produce them, lest we have to support the project for its entire life-cycle, which can be decades. Also, a non-commercial license restrict sharing between labs, or even use for some entities that work as government contractors.

Re: KiCad: A commitment to freedom

#70

As someone who has been in the PCB industry for the past decade, it has been fascinating to watch how quickly KiCad came out of nowhere and quickly gained adoption as soon as CERN started contributing. After spending years in the software development of capture/simulation/layout tools for PCBs, I have come to see that these tools are not easy to create and maintain. Most products in the market are the product of deca…

Thank you for adding KiCad! I was really excited when I saw that SnapEDA added support. Doing manual parts is always tedious in any tool, and KiCad is lacking automated generators for some of these - previously, I had been using an online PHP(?) tool to generate large pin count parts. The SnapEDA license is also OSHW compatible, so it makes it a no-brainer.

I also first tried KiCad when I no longer had access to an Altium license for personal projects, and it's been pretty smooth sailing. I imagine the choice would be even more obvious for users coming from any of the other, worse tools. One other advantage is that I don't need to run a Windows VM for it. I even did a PCB design on a Novena, which I suppose made it second-generation OSHW.

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