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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

99percentinvisible.org

61–70 of 612 posts

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#61
post #5

Getting it added to the driver's license test is probably the key here.

Using your blinker is a requirement in the driver's license test, too. So is driving with your hands 10-2, coming to a complete stop at all stop signs, and driving the speed limit. I don't think adding something to a driver's test is going to change much.

Say we removed turn signals or rear-view mirrors from the test; how often do you think they'd be used then?

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#62
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riding on the sidewalk, for short distances and with a good reason, can be done safely and courteously, though it may require slowing to walking speed. How many car drivers never exceed the speed limit and always come to a complete stop at stop signs? Your absolutism should apply in both directions, no?

I wouldn't have to be rude if cyclists rode at walking speed safely and courteously. Some cyclists are incredibly self-entitled. Of course, I think we need stiff penalties for cars hitting cyclists. However, cyclists need to know they are second class citizens on the side walk. Yes, cars not coming to a full stop is a problem. But saying something else us wrong doesn't make me right. I'm glad you guys have a hug box…

> cyclists need to know they are second class citizens on the side walk.

Agreed.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#63

Cycling here in Boulder is definitely much more dangerous compared to The Netherlands. A lot of cars turn right without checking for bikes. What's up with that? On the other hand the bike sharing program here in Boulder is the best I've ever seen. (I'm Dutch and live in Boulder, Colorado)

> A lot of cars turn right without checking for bikes. What's up with that?

Why are you to the right of the turning lane? If you are a vehicle, act like a (slow-moving, natch) vehicle: get in the right-most through lane, and hold it.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#64
A honest question for people who say getting rid of street parking is an economically viable idea - would it be economically viable if there was an underground road system purely for bikes, where there would be no way for cars and larger vehicles to share the ride? You also don't need to worry about the weather.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#65
post #7

Right, Large scale change of driver habits is a simple solution... a more enforcable suggestion is that the car owner is by default liable for any damages that happen from dooring, and that dooring is a fineable offence. Give car owners a real motivacion to check for bikes

Why do you think that the penalties you propose will drive a better change in behavior than this simple and effective habit they're suggesting to drivers? What behavioral change do you expect to result from your proposal and how is it better than getting people to start a habit that will cause them to automatically check behind them? By what mechanism do you believe that punishing unintentional behavior will drive positive changes?

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#66
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where should the cars park then? Parking is a real issue in large cities and we won't solve it by removing even more spots. Other solutions (which are potentially more expensive) should be looked into before we consider removing street parking.

In big cities these days most parking is off street anyway. A trend to remove on street parking in favor of better pedestrian safety and improved traffic flow can only be a positive.

I live in a big city that is having a similar debate of bike lanes sacrificing space for on-street parking.

And it's a frustrating debate.

Look, I drive. I love parking spaces because I hate looking for parking.

But I also know that as more people move into the city, we need alternative modes of transportation. It's simply unsustainable to add more parking spaces in the hopes of alleviating the lack of supply. We're better off increasing usage of alternative forms of transportation by installing bike lanes (which when properly designed, unequivocally encourages bike usage) and increasing funding for mass transit.

And on-street parking can be so frustrating on major streets as people have to brake and reverse into a spot, stopping traffic. Or they crawl at a much slower pace as they try finding an open spot. Or they force awkward lane changes as there is inconsistencies as to whether or not the lane is drivable/parkable.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#67

Or, as a bike rider one can simply look into a cars cabin and see if a person is inside. I assume everyone is a terrible driver, have no idea I'm on the road. I am a regular bike commuter on traffic heavy Los Angeles. I'll never understand the mentality of bicyclists who are more concerned with asserting their rights as opposed to exercising caution and restraint. Graveyards are full of people who had the right of wa…

Cyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. It's also very frustrating to have to assume everyone is so ignorant that they wouldn't mind accidentally killing you for the sake of saving a second or two. I completely agree that being aggressively paranoid is the way to stay alive. But agreeing that it is the sm…

It's a fact that we have to live in the world as it is, not as we would like it to be. Tips for surviving as a cyclist are not incompatible with trying to change things, but one may make the world a better place in twenty years while the other keeps you alive today. The trouble is when people behave as though that world already existed. It may be frustrating, but people absolutely are ignorant and lazy and that absolutely can kill you. Asserting your rights is great, but better to do it politically than on the road in a way that can get you killed.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#68

Or, as a bike rider one can simply look into a cars cabin and see if a person is inside. I assume everyone is a terrible driver, have no idea I'm on the road. I am a regular bike commuter on traffic heavy Los Angeles. I'll never understand the mentality of bicyclists who are more concerned with asserting their rights as opposed to exercising caution and restraint. Graveyards are full of people who had the right of wa…

Checking all the cars as you ride is rather distracting, and a lot of cars have tinted windows. Practically speaking, you can't reliably look into all the cars and pay attention to everything else going on. Personally, I try to stay as far to the outside of the door zone as traffic allows.

Very few Dutch cars have tinted windows. Tinted windows are mostly seen with criminal types.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that argument; effectively it boils down to "it is hard, so why try anything at all?" Even if it took thirty years and even if it was only ten percent effective, what is the negatives to this plan? One more minor skill to driving? One more bullet in the driving code?

Because by the time this plan actually works, humans won't even be driving cars anymore. And as I said I would be very surprised if it actually did work, given how quickly people lose the habits they are taught in driver's ed (how many people keep 4 seconds of distance, wear their seatbelt, never speed, adjust their mirrors correctly, look both ways for trains, etc.)

> Because by the time this plan actually works, humans won't even be driving cars anymore.

They'll still be opening doors and riding bikes however.

> how many people keep 4 seconds of distance, wear their seatbelt, never speed, adjust their mirrors correctly, look both ways for trains, etc.

Most people? Well except for the speed one. But the vast majority of people wear their seatbelts, give a safe travelling distance (although people are terrible at judging it), and are careful at railroad crossings.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#70
post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

In San Francisco, especially in the southern neighborhoods, they simply park in the bike lanes: pick up trucks, cleaning services vans, even ice cream carts! Park for 15, 30, 45 minutes.
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