Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 112 posts

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#61

Post by lintiness »

rspeer wrote: post #50
lintiness wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm pretty sure that's exactly what i said.

Then you were exceptionally unclear about it. What does Google News's science section have to do with anything? A newspaper's "science" section has little to do with real science.

the argument the article made was that financial barriers made science inaccessible. ubiquitous exposure (google news) makes the argument nonsensical. if you think you can't master high school science today (the argument) without bunsen burners, some hcl, and an egregiously over paid teacher, i can't help you.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#62

Post by plandis »

davidf18 wrote: post #35

From the article: > Last year, Christina Quasney was close to giving up. A biochemistry major at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Quasney's background was anything but privileged. People with little family money get free grants and low-interest government backed loans to attend college. She is attending a public university. In NYC, there are many students that are attending City University of New York an…

I didn't learn about FAFSA until I was already in my first year of college.

Navigating how to apply and pay for college is difficult if nobody you know has done it before.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#63

Post by rmxt »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #49
nickpinkston wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blindness of privilege: > I paid for 90% of tuition/housing/living expenses by programming computers beginning in high school. It's commendable that OP did this - that's great and plenty of people have squandered their gifts unlike him. However, just because funding is available doesn't mean people aren't at a disadvantage due to their situation. Does OP really believe that you're on equal ground if you: - Live i…

The OP's point is that funding is not the issue. You are correct to note that the real problem is that the poor are more likely to be bad people in general, and that they will drag down other poor folks. Poor people are likely to be bad parents (as you note) and are far more likely than non-poor people to engage in violence against friends, relatives and neighbors. No one disputes this. The point is that it's not eco…

Does poverty create "bad people" or do "bad people" end up in poverty?

That seems like a question that you would need answered before you can assert that "it's not economics keeping people from the sciences."

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#64

Post by davidf18 »

plandis wrote: post #62
davidf18 wrote: post #35

From the article: > Last year, Christina Quasney was close to giving up. A biochemistry major at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Quasney's background was anything but privileged. People with little family money get free grants and low-interest government backed loans to attend college. She is attending a public university. In NYC, there are many students that are attending City University of New York an…

I didn't learn about FAFSA until I was already in my first year of college. Navigating how to apply and pay for college is difficult if nobody you know has done it before.

The colleges hire people to help with financial aid and they are supposed to speak with students before classes start because of application deadlines.

I'm sorry that your college didn't help you as they should have.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#65

Post by rmxt »

zo1 wrote: post #59
nickpinkston wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blindness of privilege: > I paid for 90% of tuition/housing/living expenses by programming computers beginning in high school. It's commendable that OP did this - that's great and plenty of people have squandered their gifts unlike him. However, just because funding is available doesn't mean people aren't at a disadvantage due to their situation. Does OP really believe that you're on equal ground if you: - Live i…

You can't easily fix a broken culture from the outside. All people need to be treated equally, above all else, including race, gender, beliefs, and economic status (yes). I simply think it is unfair to nullify and demean the good work that hard-working individuals have done. By claiming that their position in life is a product of "privilege" or their parent's privilege, and simply giving those that did not do said ha…

Putting your ideological motivations aside, how do programs promoting home computer ownership or basic literacy (with the ultimate aim of getting people up to par in literacy, before encouraging development in the sciences) in impoverished areas "nullify and demean the good work that hard-working individuals have done"? There's no logical connection there, nor any sort of free pass being offered.

Furthermore, the implication that people in poverty are any less "hard-working" than those that have achieved financial success/accessibility to the sciences seems like a claim that needs some citations. Quick Google searches suggest that escaping poverty with children would actually require working more than 40-hours a week. Seems like a catch-22 for trying to achieve financial, familial and educational success. [1]

[1] http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/05/06/u-s-minimum-wage-e...

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#66

Post by yummyfajitas »

rmxt wrote: post #63
yummyfajitas wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP's point is that funding is not the issue. You are correct to note that the real problem is that the poor are more likely to be bad people in general, and that they will drag down other poor folks. Poor people are likely to be bad parents (as you note) and are far more likely than non-poor people to engage in violence against friends, relatives and neighbors. No one disputes this. The point is that it's not eco…

Does poverty create "bad people" or do "bad people" end up in poverty? That seems like a question that you would need answered before you can assert that "it's not economics keeping people from the sciences."

That's easily answerable.

First, we can look at the past or other countries. Either the US 1950's or the top 10% of India consists of people who live in what we call "poverty" in 2016 USA.

Second, we can take good people, drop them into poverty, and watch what happens. For example, take an upper middle class 22 year old, drop them into the poverty of graduate school, and check whether they go bad.

Both of these are ways of letting the people vary, but holding the economic stimulus constant.

From what I've seen, both groups are extremely reluctant to engage in violence. When I was in grad school, even the 10'th year graduate students ("lifers") did not start robbing people or beating their wives! Also, very interestingly, both groups rarely stay poor for long when placed in the US.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#67

Post by davidf18 »

davidf18 wrote: post #35

From the article: > Last year, Christina Quasney was close to giving up. A biochemistry major at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Quasney's background was anything but privileged. People with little family money get free grants and low-interest government backed loans to attend college. She is attending a public university. In NYC, there are many students that are attending City University of New York an…

My junior/senior high school charged no tuition -- just fees and books. Entrance was based on grades/test scores/personal interview.

I did not grow up in NYC, but there are several free public high schools for gifted scientists and engineers to be including Stuyvesant High School and the Bronx School of Science. Entrance is based on merit.

So, it is certainly possible to get a top rated education not coming from "privilege." Other communities offer Magnet Schools and more should be offering them. A huge systemic problem in this country is that we spend enormous sums of money for "special education" but very little for academically gifted children. That is a real problem.

If one is concerned that children "without privilege" can get to be scientists and engineers and so on, then they should be solving a systems problem which is not enough public Magnet Schools for academically gifted children.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#68

Post by SilasX »

bbctol wrote: post #10
jkot wrote: post #4

Great! Problem is not that scientists are often paid less than McDonald's burger flipper. No! It is social and gender issue! Lets push even more students into this career path.

The low pay for scientists is very definitely related to it not being an accessible path for lower classes.

But they can offer so little pay in the first place because we've created a huge oversupply of people willing to do the work.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#69

Post by r00fus »

zo1 wrote: post #59
nickpinkston wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blindness of privilege: > I paid for 90% of tuition/housing/living expenses by programming computers beginning in high school. It's commendable that OP did this - that's great and plenty of people have squandered their gifts unlike him. However, just because funding is available doesn't mean people aren't at a disadvantage due to their situation. Does OP really believe that you're on equal ground if you: - Live i…

You can't easily fix a broken culture from the outside. All people need to be treated equally, above all else, including race, gender, beliefs, and economic status (yes). I simply think it is unfair to nullify and demean the good work that hard-working individuals have done. By claiming that their position in life is a product of "privilege" or their parent's privilege, and simply giving those that did not do said ha…

> I simply think it is unfair to nullify and demean the good work that hard-working individuals have done. By claiming that their position in life is a product of "privilege" or their parent's privilege, and simply giving those that did not do said hard work a free pass and cash.

And here it is - you think those who didn't have the same benefits as you and me (presumably) are takers who want "a free pass" and "cash".

What's missing in your diatribe is the fact that what everyone wants is opportunity or even a chance of opportunity. Not a handout - most people just want a fair break.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#70

Post by cryoshon »

kaitai wrote: post #13

As I write this, there are just a small number of comments, all saying "there's no money in research" and "scientists are paid less than McDonald's burger flipper". It's like a whole section of disgruntled grad students who wanted to be professors. There is tons of money in science! People who "fail out" of or never wanted to pursue the stupid academic dream become active in patent law, become managers at pharma and…

>There is tons of money in science!

Yep, it goes to the cost of doing research, paying the CEO and VPs, marketing, etc. Industry positions pay vastly better than academia, but still quite poorly relative to the amount of work and expertise needed.

Post reply on HN