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Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

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Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#61
post #4

The only regulation that really matters is making car manufacturers liable for accidents and they would have to pay a fine from $100,000 for the smallest accident (per car) up to $10 million per accident. When the manufacturers "can't explain" how the accident happened (after an audit was performed), they should be fined the maximum $10 million amount. Why? Because for one assuming it's just a glitch and "they don't…

There’s a lot of stupid to unwind here, but I'll just leave at this: your plan would leave a tremendous amount of ambiguity that skilled lawyers would wriggle through. That is, “what is an accident?” Is it an accident if the driver takes control of the automated system and drives straight into a wall? Is it an accident if a non-automated truck truck with a huge branch sticking out the back obscures the automated car’…

These are common questions of fault that are trivially resolved in any motor accident. Someone or something is in control of the vehicle and can be assigned fault. Or in some situations, everyone is at fault and the shares of fault are determined.

If the system is operating autonomously, then the fault lies with the system. Failing to leave sufficient following distance is a common cause of accident and almost always results in fault being found with that driver. This would not change if the driver was a computer system.

However - side note - objects that project from the rear of a vehicle must be flagged using a red cloth. So if the truck were operating with an unflagged load then they could be the party at fault!

If the occupant takes the vehicle out of autonomous mode, then fault would lie with the occupant, unless it was to avoid some kind of impending accident in which cause the situation would have to be examined in detail.

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would say the majority of regulations (at least in > OECD countries) are sensible I think it can be shocking to non-Americans just how much the Americans distrust and think their lawmakers and -- especially shockingly, their civil servants -- are both incompetent and have malicious intent. American friends have found it incredible -- for example -- that something like NICE[0] can exist and people don't assume it'…

> I think it can be shocking to non-Americans just how much the Americans distrust and think their lawmakers and -- especially shockingly, their civil servants -- are both incompetent and have malicious intent. The EU is often criticized (e.g., Brexit) as being something that promulgates useless regulations (e.g., curvature of a banana).

I quite like the human rights and environmental protections afforded me as a EU citizen. British people see the beginnings of their work rights already in the crosshairs since Brexit. Glad I live in the Netherlands now.

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#63
post #6
post #5

I'm astounded that it seems like these regulations are going to be sensible and promote the technology. It's a good thing that these are going into place, since autonomous vehicles should definitely not be legislated on a state-by-state basis.

> I'm astounded that it seems like these regulations are going to be sensible... Was that hyperbole? I would say the majority of regulations (at least in OECD countries) are sensible, and many that are not are intended to be, are outdated, or are politicized.

How can a website where the majority of people likely live in Silicon Valley actually believe that the majority of government regulation is good? Any regulation needs to be intensely scrutinized because the implications are not even completely understandable when they are created.

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#64

I'm surprised that self-driving technology is focusing on replacing the driver as an autonomous actor, processing visual and radar/lidar signals in order to know about its surroundings. I've always thought we'd get further faster by having automobiles also talk to other vehicles nearby, and design roads to support the computer driven vehicles. Two examples are: 1) If the vehicle is talking to the cars in front of it,…

While networked cars are interesting, there is also a massive security issue here.

Hackers will easily figure out a way to spoof the communication, and could play with traffic.

There are mitigations for most issues, but it's a complex topic.

Just imagine some scenarios:

-) Spoof an emergency break advisory that causes tailing cars to also do an emergency break. (could be mitigated by first observing that cars in front are actually slowing down before breaking)

-) Spoof a command from a smart traffic light at an intersection to stop immediately for police / other emergency traffic. (need to check if traffic light is actually red)

-) Spoof speed restrictions issued by a smart highway traffic jam prevention system.

-) A system for police to force a car to stop immediately and pull over, eliminating car chases. Just spoof this signal and stop anyone you want. (mitigate by checking if there is a police car trailing you, and ignore otherwise).

And so on...

A way around would be to maintain a national database with public keys for each registered vehicle, and make cars only accept those keys. But that would be hard to maintain and still hackers could just get a hold of some PK.

In the end, the driving system will always have to correlate such car 2 car communication with observations it makes itself.

And an autonomous system can react almost immediately anyway. So coordination doesen't give you all that much.

-- There are some useful ideas though, like:

-) Traffic lights can announce an ideal speed for a route, taking into account traffic and traffic light timings, so you can optimize throughput and minimize fuel consumption

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#65
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree with almost all of this. Liability should be with the owner of the car, like it mostly is today. They are the ones buying it and operating it on the public roads. They should have insurance to cover this liability.

Given that for autonomous vehicles the human will be a passenger and not participate in vehicle control, it makes sense that it is the manufacturer of the autonomous vehicle who is liable for faults caused by its own operation. Take an example where you signal your car to come pick you up at a location. If the car were to get into an accident on its way to you, and a software bug in the vehicle implementation is the…

Does it really matter in practice though? If someone else is driving your car without you in the vehicle you can still be liable. Car insurance for autonomous vehicles will be dramatically cheaper and will still be required (someone can ram into your autonomous car as Google has proven many times!) which can surely cover the liability for edge cases.

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#66
post #29
post #4

The only regulation that really matters is making car manufacturers liable for accidents and they would have to pay a fine from $100,000 for the smallest accident (per car) up to $10 million per accident. When the manufacturers "can't explain" how the accident happened (after an audit was performed), they should be fined the maximum $10 million amount. Why? Because for one assuming it's just a glitch and "they don't…

Disagree with almost all of this. Liability should be with the owner of the car, like it mostly is today. They are the ones buying it and operating it on the public roads. They should have insurance to cover this liability.

I'm worried about the following: Hapless Joe buys a nice, well reviewed, good looking and performant self-driving car. He enjoys it very much for a year, goes for all the required maintenance checks. Then suddenly as he is taking a nap on his usual daily commute the car swerves onto the sidewalk and runs over my wife. Turns out there is a very rare race condition in the path finding algorithm, which makes it do that with astronomically low probability. What I don't want: I don't want Hapless Joe's life to be ruined, he did nothing wrong. I also don't want my wife to become just a statistics. What I want: A crack team of industry veterans get to work. Both engineers from the self driving car company, and independent experts. Since accidents of this kind are so rare they have ample amount of resources to overturn every rock, develop new investigation techniques if must, and nail down all the nodes in the causality chain. Then they disseminate their findings and make all cars on the road, as well as the industry best practices, so much safer.

Is this how you mean the owner's liability to work out? Because then I agree with you. If you want to punish Joe. Take away his savings, possibly his home. I don't see a point in that honestly.

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> autonomous vehicles should definitely not be legislated on a state-by-state basis. Why do you say that? I have no opinion either way, just curious

Cars move. Splitting the laws by state would mean also splitting the market, and allowing cars on the road which would be illegal to e.g. drive into Texas. Really, it should be international.

I'm now wondering a world without left or right turning wheel. Maybe even a right handed UK ?

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#68
post #30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest gripe is overreach. You start with sensible building codes, and eventually the city council is telling you what color bricks you have to use before they'll approve your plan. Yes this happens.

As someone living in a country where there are very lax building codes, I would welcome regulation that mandates what colors you're allowed to use!

Why is that? I can see why there would be regulations on brick quality, but why color?

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#69
post #4

The only regulation that really matters is making car manufacturers liable for accidents and they would have to pay a fine from $100,000 for the smallest accident (per car) up to $10 million per accident. When the manufacturers "can't explain" how the accident happened (after an audit was performed), they should be fined the maximum $10 million amount. Why? Because for one assuming it's just a glitch and "they don't…

What other industries, that run mechanical equipment that can kill people, do you feel these are already applied in?

Erm, apart from the punitive damages this is pretty much any product liability suit. If you make life-critical systems and your product fails you are getting sued out the wazoo - which is why many products will specifically state that they are not to be used in life-critical systems.

Most mechanical equipment is not reviewed on a case-by-case basis by a regulatory industry; however aircraft incidents are. Aircraft products - meaning any product that is used on an aircraft, right down to the bolts attaching the overhead bins - are expected to be serviceable in "expected conditions of flight". If they are not, the manufacturer is subject to compensatory and even punitive damages [1].

Manufacturers can even be liable for their design decisions, unless the design decisions are specifically constrained by regulations. Obtaining product certification is a strong indicator that a product is compliant, but it may nevertheless expose the manufacturer to liability [2]. These are obviously difficult standards to meet, but they are appropriate when life-critical systems are in question.

[1] http://www.dailyreportingsuite.com/products-liability/news/_...

[2] http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/429650/Aviation/FAA+Wei...

> In response to the third and final question, the FAA explains that because an aircraft type certificate embodies the FAA's determination that an aircraft, engine, or propeller design complies with federal standards, it can play an important role in determining whether a manufacturer breached a duty owed to the plaintiff. The type certificate does not create a per se bar to suit, but ordinary conflict preemption principles apply to the particular design-defect claim. According to the FAA, the type certificate will preempt a state tort suit only where compliance with both the certificate and the claims made in the tort suit "is a physical impossibility" or where the claims "stand as an obstacle to the accomplishment of the full purposes and objectives of Congress."7

> Where the FAA has expressly approved the specific design aspect that a plaintiff challenges, that claim would be preempted. On the other hand, where the FAA has left a particular design choice to a manufacturer's discretion, and no other conflict exists, the type certificate does not preempt a design-defect claim. In other words, where the FAA has not made an affirmative determination with respect to the challenged design, and has left that design aspect to the manufacturer's discretion, the claim would proceed by reference to the federal standards of care found in the Act and its implementing regulations.

...

> The difficulty in applying the FAA's views on preemption to product claims lies in the fact that aircraft design specifications rarely require a specific design, but are instead couched in terms of performance or safety outcomes. For example, the certification standards for a stall warning system in a Part 23 aircraft requires "a clear and distinctive stall warning, with the flaps and landing gear in any normal position, in straight and turning flight" by a system "that will give clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight."9 A type certificate issued for a Part 23 aircraft would presumptively mean the FAA determined that the aircraft complied with these standards at the time the design was certified. However, would the type certificate preclude all product liability claims based on a defective stall warning system? What if the certification was actually wrong and the system did not comply with the standard when the FAA already said that it did? Can this type of claim actually be litigated or is it preempted?

> Additionally, what if the claimed defect was that the stall warning system did not provide a warning when operated outside certification limits such as weight, speed, or center of gravity? Are these conditions outside the "expected conditions of flight" and therefore no federal standard exists? The FAA's Letter Brief to the Third Circuit in Sikkelee does not provide clear answers in the context of product liability litigation. Courts will continue to struggle with deciding these difficult issues in the future.

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#70
post #31
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And is the fundamental belief of libertarians: that governments can do nothing right, either morally or pragmatically.

I'm (mostly) a libertarian, and I disagree. I think the government is fundamental at keeping the society sane, secure and organized.

I agree. I find my self leaning libertarian as of the last few years. To me it isn't about no regulation; just no "nanny" regulation
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