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Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

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Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#61

Post by [deleted] »

peterkelly wrote: post #39
mozumder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. Why would the NSA have these compliance filters as part of a classified program if they were allegedly performing illegal activities?

> What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? See the first link in my comment. > In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. So what? As one of the 7.1 billion people who are not US citizens, I object to the notion that…

[deleted]

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#62

Post by nashashmi »

peterkelly wrote: post #39
mozumder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. Why would the NSA have these compliance filters as part of a classified program if they were allegedly performing illegal activities?

> What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? See the first link in my comment. > In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. So what? As one of the 7.1 billion people who are not US citizens, I object to the notion that…

NSA cannot target Americans or American residents for spying. But they are allowed to spy and are in fact tasked with spying on non-Americans.

It is what a U.S. spy agency does. And the spy agency of other countries, western and non-western, are supposed to be doing, e.g. spying on people outside of their countries. (Spying on your own people is akin to living in a totalitarian state.)

What Snowden did was reveal to the world how extensive and deep the NSA's reach was. His initial objection was NSA's ability to spy on Americans, but when he blew the whistle, the entire world found out they too were being spied on.

Misfire! Should he be punished or rewarded? It is a double edged sword.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#64

Post by fixermark »

tFXR89qo wrote: post #52

Or... finally fix your broken judiciary so he can have a fair trial.

That may not be possible given the category of law he's charged with. Since his leak did damages to espionage programs that are undisclosable (under classified information law), prosecuting him fairly may not be compatible with the American system of justice as laid out in the Constitution. No real way to do it without building a "star court" with privileged access to classified information, that can therefore not be a randomly-chosen jury of his peers.

... which, one could argue, is a problem with the way the US runs espionage.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#65

Post by freehunter »

canttestthis wrote: post #44
peterkelly wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? See the first link in my comment. > In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. So what? As one of the 7.1 billion people who are not US citizens, I object to the notion that…

> As surprising as this may sound, those of us born in other countries have the same rights too, and deserve the same protections. Citizens of other countries in fact don't have the same rights and protections against the NSA as citizens. It's why the NSA exists.

If the Constitution says something, it applies to everyone everywhere. The Constitution of the United States does not apply to people it applies to the government. It says nothing about "US citizens" or "foreign nationals". It restricts what the government can do.

So if the fourth amendment right to protection against unreasonable searches applies here (which there seems to be some debate about), it would apply to everyone. Not just to US citizens. The government does not have the right to perform searches of personal property without a warrant detailing exactly what will be searched. Again, this restriction applies to the government, it is not a protection afforded to citizens.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#66

Post by emddudley »

peterkelly wrote: post #39
mozumder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. Why would the NSA have these compliance filters as part of a classified program if they were allegedly performing illegal activities?

> What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? See the first link in my comment. > In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. So what? As one of the 7.1 billion people who are not US citizens, I object to the notion that…

So are countries sovereign or not? Are you saying that the US should be subject to the constitutions and laws of other nations, and vice versa?

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#67

Post by fixermark »

RogtamBar wrote: post #16

He already has a medal, very likely. He revealed what everyone interested was already suspecting. The reason Russia shelters him is that he was working for them. It's a reward, and one they have to give out, otherwise no on smart would cooperate with them. If he wasn't a former Russian agent, it'd be better for them letting America make an example of him, because what would make US look worse than jailing for life so…

That theory is incompatible with the theory that he's actually a deep-cover CIA agent acting to very publicly and internationally embarrass their rival department---the NSA---whom they feel has gathered too much power and overstepped its Constitutional authority.

Given the lack of evidence to support either theory, I choose to believe my conspiracy theory because I like it better. ;)

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#68

Post by thomasahle »

mozumder wrote: post #33
peterkelly wrote: post #10

Another important question is whether or not the NSA should be pardoned for their illegal activity: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-nsa-idUSKBN0N... Or whether James Clapper deserves a pardon for committing perjury during a testimony to Congress: http://www.hasjamesclapperbeenindictedyet.com Edit: /s

What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. Why would the NSA have these compliance filters as part of a classified program if they were allegedly performing illegal activities?

> What illegal activities did the NSA perform here?

They "systematically collect millions of Americans' phone records" which is ruled by court to be illegal (the reuters link).

Then they lied about it to congress, saying they didn't collect "any type of data at all on millions of Americans" (the second link).

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#69

Post by dllthomas »

freehunter wrote: post #65
canttestthis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As surprising as this may sound, those of us born in other countries have the same rights too, and deserve the same protections. Citizens of other countries in fact don't have the same rights and protections against the NSA as citizens. It's why the NSA exists.

If the Constitution says something, it applies to everyone everywhere. The Constitution of the United States does not apply to people it applies to the government. It says nothing about "US citizens" or "foreign nationals". It restricts what the government can do. So if the fourth amendment right to protection against unreasonable searches applies here (which there seems to be some debate about), it would apply to ev…

http://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/vol126_t...

My understanding has it that in practice "the people" means roughly "all citizens and residents of the US", not all people anywhere. You can disagree with the courts over what the words mean, but do so deliberately.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#70

Post by peterkelly »

lucozade wrote: post #51
peterkelly wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? See the first link in my comment. > In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. So what? As one of the 7.1 billion people who are not US citizens, I object to the notion that…

> those of us born in other countries have the same rights too Not in US law we don't. To my knowledge there is no internationally agreed and enforceable privacy law. Now, as a UK citizen, I'm not exactly jumping with joy for either what the NSA or GCHQ have done but, from the point of view of US courts, spying on me is not something that bothers them hugely.

You're correct in the legal sense, but there is also the moral/philosophical aspect to it. Here's what the US Declaration of Independence had to say on the matter:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

This is the moral/philosophical aspect. (I consider privacy to be one component of liberty, but expect it's not a universally-held view).

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

This is the legal aspect.

So it depends on which you look at. In my comment above I was referring to the former. And specifically, my argument was based on that laid out at the very beginning of one of the country's most important founding documents, which I hope would carry some weight with those US citizens who believe in the moral principles on which their country is purportedly based.

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