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Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

nytimes.com

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Re: Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

#61

Post by oscilloscope »

RivieraKid wrote: post #48
callesgg wrote: post #2

My personal theory of what consciousness is that it is a feedback loop. I have major issues explaining why i think that but somehow it fits my model. When thinking of consciousness as a feedback loop, stuff sort of makes sense. I have been unable to poke holes in the theory but also unable to add strength to it.

Feedback loop is a very abstract concept and I honestly do not see any connection to consciousness.

Feedback loops aren't that abstract. There are many examples in the physical world, especially in the brain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback#Applications

Re: Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

#63

Post by 7373737373 »

ajkjk wrote: post #60
7373737373 wrote: post #57

Integrated Information Theory[0][1] is the first approach to solving these problems that make sense for me. It takes an axiomatic approach and provides a computable method to associate both a level of consciousness and the content of the experience to an arbitrary causal system. Unlike all these unscientific philosophical considerations it can actually be used to create testable hypotheses. [0] http://integratedinfor…

I don't see why any of that is necessary. It seems just as mystical and hand wavey as other attempts to talk about consciousness, from what I've browsed.

There isn't anything mystical about it, though - if close to the truth - it would have some interesting implications. I would be interested in seeing different approaches with similar explanatory power.

Re: Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

#64

Post by paulsutter »

Consciousness is a suitcase word, which makes it challenging to debate. From [1]:

"In The Emotion Machine, Marvin Minsky discusses suitcase words—words that contain a variety of meanings packed into them, such as conscience, emotions, consciousness, experience, thinking, morality, right, and wrong.

"The word ‘consciousness’ is used to describe a wide range of activities, such as “how we reason and make decisions, how we represent our intentions, and how we know what we’ve recently done [p128].” If we want to better understand the various meanings of consciousness we need to analyse each one separately, rather than treating it as a single concept.

[1] https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/

Re: Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

#65

Post by davmre »

7373737373 wrote: post #57

Integrated Information Theory[0][1] is the first approach to solving these problems that make sense for me. It takes an axiomatic approach and provides a computable method to associate both a level of consciousness and the content of the experience to an arbitrary causal system. Unlike all these unscientific philosophical considerations it can actually be used to create testable hypotheses. [0] http://integratedinfor…

Have you read Scott Aaronson's "Why I Am Not An Integrated Information Theorist" (http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1799)? He commends IIT for making falsifiable predictions, but argues that some of those predictions are, in fact, false.

Re: Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

#66

Post by kordless »

mynegation wrote: post #12

To echo callesgg elsewhere in this thread, my own pet "theory" is that conciousness is a metacomputation, i.e. not just a process of neural reactions to outside events, but reaction to a process of reaction. For example, understanding the need to convey acquired information to another being to the same species eventually led to the development of language. Figuring out that brain forgets information led to the develo…

There's meta computation and meta storage - the global consciousness is all computable Wisdom, but done with sacredness (delay). Space, or the creation of it, is networking or data exchange between the computation layer and the "storage" layer. We are here because of the causality happening between the layers.

Re: Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

#67

Post by Strilanc »

7373737373 wrote: post #57

Integrated Information Theory[0][1] is the first approach to solving these problems that make sense for me. It takes an axiomatic approach and provides a computable method to associate both a level of consciousness and the content of the experience to an arbitrary causal system. Unlike all these unscientific philosophical considerations it can actually be used to create testable hypotheses. [0] http://integratedinfor…

I really don't get the appeal of IIT. Smells like curve fitting, which would be fine except they don't have anything solid to fit against. I agree with essentially everything Scott Aaronson has said about it [1][2]:

> When we consider whether to accept IIT’s equation of integrated information with consciousness, we don’t start with any agreed-upon, independent notion of consciousness against which the new notion can be compared. The main things we start with, in my view, are certain paradigm-cases that gesture toward what we mean

> [...] But how does Giulio know that the cerebellum isn’t conscious? [...] he just told us that a 2D square grid [a simple circuit that scores high phi] is conscious!

1: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1799

2: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1823

Re: Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

#68

Post by aminok »

Given the world is analog, with states never reaching a state of absolute zero (e.g. there is no distance from a nucleus at which there is zero probability that an orbiting electron will be found), I think consciousness does not ever diminish to nothingness at physical states simpler than our own. It could therefore be reasoned that all matter in the universe is conscious.

Re: Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

#69

Post by astazangasta »

paulsutter wrote: post #64

Consciousness is a suitcase word, which makes it challenging to debate. From [1]: "In The Emotion Machine, Marvin Minsky discusses suitcase words—words that contain a variety of meanings packed into them, such as conscience, emotions, consciousness, experience, thinking, morality, right, and wrong. "The word ‘consciousness’ is used to describe a wide range of activities, such as “how we reason and make decisions, how…

Every word is a suitcase word.

Re: Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery, It’s Matter

#70

Post by mcguire »

wslh wrote: post #58
nitrogen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the proof you need is the existence of psychoactive chemicals, the effectiveness of transcranial magnetic stimulation, evidence from fMRI studies, and the selective personality alterations that occur in cases of localized brain damage.

I don't think so, consciousness seems from another dimension, you feel that you are present in this world while even if you build the most complex machinery you don't obtain that result. I am obviously just speculating because I don't see an obvious connection between matter and consciousness even if they are linked in some way. The article doesn't give any clarity about this problem stated by Leibniz et al.

"...I don't see an obvious connection between matter and consciousness even if they are linked in some way."

Dualism has worse problems, though. If there is no connection between consciousness and matter, how do psychoactive substances alter consciousness? How do conscious decisions cause material movements?

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