ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down • Hacker News Board

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#61

Post by douche » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 2:57 PM UTC

slfnflctd wrote: post #57

qaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should avg. taxpayer take on this burden?

Better question: Why shouldn't they? These are almost all going to be, by definition, disadvantaged people who have been lied to and defrauded. Yes, they 'chose' to do this, but the staggering amount of misleading advertising (and the worst kinds of sleazy-salesman lies & emotional manipulation of the vulnerable) leaves plenty of doubt as to how much of a choice they had. I see very little difference between helping…

If you're going that route, strip every asset ITT owns, auction it off, and distribute the proceeds to students.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#62

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 2:58 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #61

slfnflctd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better question: Why shouldn't they? These are almost all going to be, by definition, disadvantaged people who have been lied to and defrauded. Yes, they 'chose' to do this, but the staggering amount of misleading advertising (and the worst kinds of sleazy-salesman lies & emotional manipulation of the vulnerable) leaves plenty of doubt as to how much of a choice they had. I see very little difference between helping…

If you're going that route, strip every asset ITT owns, auction it off, and distribute the proceeds to students.

Which amounts to some rented buildings, some tables and chairs, and ...

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#63

Post by larrywright » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #13

peterhadlaw wrote: post #3

As an alum of IIT (Chicago)... This is extra, great news.

Why'd you go? What'd you study? What was the experience like? (I have a single semester at UIC and no other college).

I'm pretty sure he's referring to Illinois Institute of Technology (http://web.iit.edu), and the fact that the name confusion doesn't act in his favor. I didn't attend, but I've been on the campus and it seems like a pretty great school.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#64

Post by drunken-serval » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

johan_larson wrote: post #17

tptacek wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That their credits had virtually no chance of transferring to any other institution --- a point ITT was forced to make on its own website --- is a pretty good reason not to allow it to be the beneficiary of billions of dollars of public financing.

I've seen some discussion of letting credits transfer using something called Prior Learning Assessment, essentially having the student prove they've learned the material taught in various courses at the receiving institution. http://suburbdad.blogspot.ca/2016/09/friday-fragments.html Transfer of any sort tends to be tricky. You rarely get anything close to parity, particularly in core courses.

> Transfer of any sort tends to be tricky. You rarely get anything close to parity, particularly in core courses.

Depends on the school. I transfered from Northern Michigan University to University of Wisconsin, Green Bay. Most of my courses transferred and fulfilled most of my gen-ed requirements.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#65

Post by cookiecaper » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

aaronchall wrote: post #35

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…

My experience is that there are plenty of community colleges, but people don't want to go to them because they feel they're stigmatized.

I have to admit that while I'm obviously against exploitative schemes, the shutdown of something that may have been a viable alternative to a traditional university hurts a little. Small trade schools, which ITT presented itself as even if it was in reality just a scam, are much better learning environments than large universities for most of the kind of stuff that hackers do.

I'm worried there will be a small cultural backlash against people without traditional educations on the heels of this shutdown. Since traditional university education is mostly just a massive, deeply-ingrained scam itself, this is disappointing.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#66

Post by clarkmoody » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 3:00 PM UTC

It looks like the main problem in this whole scheme is the government-funded student loan program. ITT was wrangling to get access that that loan money as a key to its operations. Failing to comply with the Dept of Ed's requirements caused them to go out of business, since they would no longer have a place at the public trough.

How many state schools and private colleges could survive without government largess? We've seen a massive increase in tuition costs, far beyond inflation in recent years. Such is the result of artificially boosting demand for college on the backs of the taxpayer.

As for forgiving ITT student loans, I say no. Students are responsible for their own loans and (bad) decisions. By that reasoning, shouldn't we just forgive all student debt for anyone who didn't get their dream job straight out of undergrad? What about those who don't finish school but still have loans? For everyone but the far left, these ideas are ludicrous. Let's not make the taxpayer suffer twice for the poor decisions of others.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#67

Post by kayla210 » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 3:01 PM UTC

pauldix wrote: post #37

tptacek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ITT was anything but a ladder of economic mobility. It preyed on those people who most needed that mobility. The institutions you're squeamish about harming are community colleges, which have much cheaper tuitions and actually do educate students.

Yep, community colleges are where it's at. I started at a small local college a half-step up from a community college as it offered 4 year degrees. Got a year's worth of credits there to establish a good record and then transferred out to an ivy. My brother got his 4 year degree from the same college, moved onto a master's at a bigger school and is doing quite well.

I went the community-college-then-university route as well. I got enough credits to get an associate's degree before transferring and was able to put that on my resume, which I feel got me some attention when I was applying for part-time programming jobs as I finished my bachelor's.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#68

Post by tptacek » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 3:02 PM UTC

larrywright wrote: post #63

tptacek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why'd you go? What'd you study? What was the experience like? (I have a single semester at UIC and no other college).

I'm pretty sure he's referring to Illinois Institute of Technology ( http://web.iit.edu ), and the fact that the name confusion doesn't act in his favor. I didn't attend, but I've been on the campus and it seems like a pretty great school.

D'oh. I'm pretty sure you're right. Thanks!

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#69

Post by clarkmoody » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 3:02 PM UTC

warmblood wrote: post #48

qaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should avg. taxpayer take on this burden?

Because the burden on your (so-called) average taxpayer of having a stagnant, debt-crippled workforce is greater and worse to bear in the long term.

But let's not make those taxpayers foot the exploding costs of tuition caused by access to so much easy money.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#70

Post by dec0dedab0de » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 3:03 PM UTC

beachstartup wrote: post #50

Yhippa wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

> What's the case against community colleges historically? nothing, but they don't have slick advertising and promise you a $75k/year job, or aggressively recruit you by calling you non-stop and using manipulative pressure tactics like you're buying a $50,000 cell phone plan at a mall kiosk.

or aggressively recruit you by calling you non-stop and using manipulative pressure tactics

Wow, you just reminded me of something funny that happened about 15 years ago.

A younger friend of mine was interested in tech, and knew I was "good with computers". They had taken some online quiz, and said I should take it. So I took it, and filled out my info thinking I might win something (I was young, and didn't particularly care.) About 15 minutes later I got a phone call from a guy trying to tell me that I was in a dead end job, and that I would never be anything if I didn't go to the school he was pushing. I think I just laughed, and said something snarky like "at least I'm not calling people up selling things." Then about an hour later he called back from another number, and was making fun of my (admittedly awful) band, asking where he could buy tickets. I calmly just told him we would appreciate the support, and gave him our website. He just hung up in a huff, but it was a very weird exchange.

In any case, I am very surprised anybody ever buys anything from pushy salespeople. I always immediately equate it to a low quality product, or a business with questionable morals.