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The Math Myth

econlog.econlib.org

61–70 of 328 posts

Re: The Math Myth

#61

At my workplace, we have about 60 scientists and engineers. The author's observation is accurate, that most people never use math beyond Excel and 8th grade math. They also never use most of the theory that they learned in their science (including CS) and engineering educations. The typical career arc is to get through college, then sit down at a CAD workstation, or programming terminal, and forget all of your math a…

All mathematics is applied mathematics. Pure mathematics is just mathematics applied to mathematics.

This is problematic, because the way mathematics is currently taught only small number of students actually grok it and make deep connections that enable them to build up on what they previously learned and learn more. Others have the constant feeling of things getting progressively harder to understand and use. I'm sure that most people (including engineers) would benefit from the ability think and really internalize concepts taught in high school level.

Pedagogical research is almost entirely directed towards small children. Psychologists have studied children and know the common hangups children have. What are common misconceptions, how to use them to make children learn. How they learn to count numbers past ten. Competent teacher can help small children to learn faster.

I think it's possible to teach most people to think _in math_ but it's much slower process.

Re: The Math Myth

#62
post #18

I think society would be a lot better if BASIC math and statistics would be better understood. How many times do you see a study posted here with N=23 and people say "the sample size is too small" when it's clearly not? How many people ask for a card deck change to change their luck? How many times do people read a poll like 49% +/- 3% vs. 43% +/- 3% and conclude the two candidates are statistically tied? I could pro…

0.999... is equal to 1 only if we assign a particular semantics to the "..." notation. Namely if "..." means "the limit of the decimal number to the left, as the repetitions of the last digit grow ever larger", then 0.999... is an alternative notation for 1 since that limit is 1.

The actual number formed by repeating 9's an infinite number of times is not constructable. Whereas 1 is constructable. So they cannot be the same thing. That's because, philosophically, two objects must be identical in every property to be the same object, and constructability is a property.

As we add 9's, we are getting ever closer to 1, and the concept of a limit lets us "fast forward" to that value. If we agree that this "..." denotes the limit, rather than the non-constructable number implied by the notation's "face value", then the equality holds.

To actually regard 0.999... = 1 to hold without involving the limit shows an ignorance of (or denial of) the validity of induction. Because, look:

Base case: 0.9 is not equal to 1.

Inductive hypothesis: Adding another digit to a decimal fraction which is not equal to 1 produces a new decimal fraction which is also not equal to 1.

Therefore, by induction, no matter how many 9's we add, we do not get 1.

Induction is not somehow canceled by infinity; induction is how we understand that a property holds for infinity: a property such as "not equal to 1".

Re: The Math Myth

#63
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, 0.9999... = 1 is not quite basic. You need to know things like infinitesimals, the distinction between value and representation of numbers etc.

Property of real numbers: between distinct real numbers is at least one other number. Now try to find a decimal representation of a number bigger than 0.9999999... but less than 1.0. You clearly can't. They must be equal. No need for infinitesimals.

Doesn't that property come from the fact that there is no infinitesimal in real number?

Re: The Math Myth

#64
post #19

This has so much more to do with the lack of easily monetizable applications of complex mathematics. I'm sure a significant number of engineers and STEM professionals feel (as I do) that they're deliberately eschewing those subjects not for a lack of interest, but rather as a response to market demand. The market of people who are genuinely passionate about complex subjects in math and science is saturated relative t…

What would you study instead to remain valuable in the next two decades? I've gotten pretty deep into engineering: worked on games, mobile, web, FP, legacy code revival, a half dozen popular languages, automated testing, and people management. I'm looking for something new to study to add flexibility and "luck surface area" to my career. I was thinking ML would be another area of valuable study. Do you have any alter…

I think you're already doing the right thing in continually learning. No one can tell you whether or not studying ML will prove to be valuable with any certainty, so it might be a good bet to pursue it if it interests you and you have the spare time and especially if you're desperate to pivot your career towards it (then you're left with no options). I can't offer a definitive decisionmaking framework, except to say that if you want to monetize something, make sure you can (fairly obvious, but not always what happens with people in our industry).

Re: The Math Myth

#65
post #18

I think society would be a lot better if BASIC math and statistics would be better understood. How many times do you see a study posted here with N=23 and people say "the sample size is too small" when it's clearly not? How many people ask for a card deck change to change their luck? How many times do people read a poll like 49% +/- 3% vs. 43% +/- 3% and conclude the two candidates are statistically tied? I could pro…

0.999... is equal to 1 only if we assign a particular semantics to the "..." notation. Namely if "..." means "the limit of the decimal number to the left, as the repetitions of the last digit grow ever larger", then 0.999... is an alternative notation for 1 since that limit is 1. The actual number formed by repeating 9's an infinite number of times is not constructable. Whereas 1 is constructable. So they cannot be t…

They're coming out of the woodwork...

Edit: sorry, didn't mean to ad hominem, but I'm going to leave my original comment there all the same. To make my post a bit more constructive, OP, what exactly is your definition of "constructible"? Because it doesn't relate to any mathematical concept I'm familiar with. Other than maybe "finitary".

Re: The Math Myth

#66
post #18

I think society would be a lot better if BASIC math and statistics would be better understood. How many times do you see a study posted here with N=23 and people say "the sample size is too small" when it's clearly not? How many people ask for a card deck change to change their luck? How many times do people read a poll like 49% +/- 3% vs. 43% +/- 3% and conclude the two candidates are statistically tied? I could pro…

> I mean I wonder how many people even understand that 0.999... = 1? To be honest, I think it's unreasonable to expect anybody - even with a Ph.D in a field other than mathematics - to be able to even define the real numbers: My definition is probably very different from yours(I tend to say there's countably many real numbers).

Having a "different definition" of the reals doesn't make it correct, even if you tend to say it.

I would expect that most people with a passing knowledge of basic calculus would be able to eventually understand the argument that not only does 0.999... = 1, but that the real numbers are uncountable. It might take some convincing, but the truths are provable and very well understood across the world.

Re: The Math Myth

#67
post #19

This has so much more to do with the lack of easily monetizable applications of complex mathematics. I'm sure a significant number of engineers and STEM professionals feel (as I do) that they're deliberately eschewing those subjects not for a lack of interest, but rather as a response to market demand. The market of people who are genuinely passionate about complex subjects in math and science is saturated relative t…

> It makes more sense for an intelligent person to take the lower overhead and more achievable approach to becoming a value creator (e.g. full stack engineer with a strong focus on product development)

I would say that the surest way to make money for a mathematicaly-inclined person is to graduate in maths from a prestigious school and work in finance.

At least, that's how I feel when I look at alumni from my school. People basically could specialize in finance or CS. Those that went into finance make consistently much more than the others.

I wish I knew that at the time. I thought banks were boring and unappealing places. But now I think finance is one of the rare field (if not the only) where you can earn a lot with a technical, non-managerial position.

Re: The Math Myth

#68
The OP is a special case of the old, big question of what to teach.

It is fair to say that there is an old and strong belief that a person who has studied broadly, and deeply through, say, college, in math, physical, biological, medical, social, and computer science, and the humanities will have a significant advantage in much of the rest of life. Lacking a better name, here I call such study a broad education.

To argue this belief in the context of the OP, the OP seems to claim that for 90% or so of people, it is enough for them to stop their math education, and by extension all their education, after the eighth grade. But in life it is fairly easy to tell the difference between the OP's eighth grade education and a broad education as I described it. So, there is a difference. Maybe the difference is significant and the broad education an advantage and worthwhile.

One point not mentioned very often is that, whatever 90% of the students do, the broad education was hoping that some of the students would find some really good uses of some of the education well past the eighth grade. The educators could have that hope even without knowing just what the good uses might be.

I studied a lot of math and physics heavily, but not entirely, because I hoped that they would help me make money. Well, early in my career within 100 miles of the Washington Monument, that hope was fully correct. I used what I had and was learning more as fast as I could drinking from a fire hose. Of course that work was mostly for US national security; there the math and physics were crucial.

Yes, it does appear that away from the work of US national security, the math and physics are less commonly used.

Still, in US commercial work, there are significant applications of the math and physics. Examples:

(A) How to operate an oil refinery. In simple terms, here is a list, with prices, of crude oil can buy and put into the refinery and a list, with prices, of refined products get out of the refinery, so a question is what to buy, produce, and sell to make the most money? First cut, the problem is linear programming, and for a while there was good money in selling IBM mainframe computers just for that work. Of course, past the first cut, the problem is in non-linear optimization.

A practical challenge is: It's a good guess that the first refinery management that did well seeing and exploiting this opportunity was well paid for their insight. Since much of the crucial core of that work was some college and/or grad school applied math and numerical analysis, knowing some math could have been an advantage for the management trying to understand and make good decisions.

(B) Take a big hammer and hit the ground and send an acoustic pulse through the ground. That pulse is commonly partially reflected at the boundaries of layers of rock, sand, etc. So, the acoustic signal that comes back is a convolution of the original. Doing a deconvolution, can map the underground layers and get some good hints of where to drill for oil. The deconvolution is basically some Fourier theory, and the fast way to do the computations is the fast Fourier transform (FFT). After Cooley, Tukey, etc. invented the FFT, such acoustic processing had an explosion that is still active. So, again, oil prospecting management needed to see, understand, and actively exploit the FFT. For that, some math was no doubt an advantage.

There are more commercial applications of math and physics. Some of the applications have been valuable already, and likely some more will be valuable in the future. So, in looking for what might be valuable in business, some math and physics stands to be an advantage.

So, in part, with a broad education we are fishing for advantages in the future. We are not sure just what subjects will lead to what advantages in the future, but we are quite sure that there will be powerful, valuable new work where, for successful exploitation, some studies will be important.

Or, the OP is concentrating on what the 90% of the people actually are using now. Well, in a sense the education wants to concentrate on what is new no one is doing yet.

Re: The Math Myth

#69
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, 0.9999... = 1 is not quite basic. You need to know things like infinitesimals, the distinction between value and representation of numbers etc.

Most people are happy to accept 0.33333... is the same as one third and from there it's a quick hop to 3*0.3333...

It's easy to imagine that eating 1 out of 3 slices of pie is "the same" in a very specific sense as eating 333333... out of 1000000... slices of the same pie (although that would be infinity out of infinity slices, which is meaningless).

What slips people up is that ignoring everything but the total pie consumed (taking the limit) is embedded in the definition of real numbers.

There's an analogous story with rationals: Suppose x1 = 1, y1 = 3, x2 = 2, and y2 = 6. If we plot them, (x1, y1) and (x2, y2) are clearly different points, but x1/y1 "equals" x2/y2 because they lie on the same line through the origin. We decide that we don't need to know about those individual points.

Re: The Math Myth

#70
post #51
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, 0.9999... = 1 is not quite basic. You need to know things like infinitesimals, the distinction between value and representation of numbers etc.

You don't need to understand anything about infinitesimals to understand 0.999... = 1. Perhaps you meant limits? The "standard" approach would be to point out that Σ_{i=1}^∞ 9/(10^i) = 1 (that is, the sum from i = 1 to infinity of 9/(10^i) is 1), and understanding an infinite summation requires the concept of a limit. (Of course, there are simpler proofs that use only basic algebra and intuition about decimals; a lim…

Limits use a construction that's pretty similar to an infinitesimal. The epsilon-delta definition of a limit is no joke for students.
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