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Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

juliareda.eu

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Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#61

Post by sliverstorm »

heinrichhartman wrote: post #36
tajen wrote: post #26

Next fight : That ISPs advertise the minimum guaranteed bandwidth and are banned from advertising the maximum theoretical number. Then only we could measure that they do offer the same bandwidth with Netflix and Vimeo as they advertise. Net neutrality at its best. Edit: Of course the number will be very low because they have to (God forbid!) provision their network to serve this bandwidth to all customers during peak…

That's not likely going to happen nore is it a sensible thing to ask for. As an ISP how would you _guarantee_ the bandwidth for each endpoint? You would have to provision for the maximal capacity all over your network. Given that most people only utilize their channel 1% of the time, this is a huge waste! What's sensible to ask ISPs to do is: (a) Communicate historically experienced bandwith at each region (b) Provid…

You would have to provision for the maximal capacity all over your network. Given that most people only utilize their channel 1% of the time, this is a huge waste!

Agreed, everybody loves the idea of fixed allocation, but never seem to consider how much that costs. If you could buy overprovisioned 25mbps @ $50/mo, or fixed allocation 25mbps @ $5,000/mo, which do you think most people would go for...

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#62

Post by whybroke »

markonthewall wrote: post #39
headmelted wrote: post #30

It encourages me to see that the European court at least has some people on it that seem to understand that net neutrality is in fact a human rights issue. And this is why Brexit is so heart-breaking. I'm surrounded by people in my personal life who think it's a fantastic idea, but they're not the most... informed? Likewise for local politicians. (Side note to my rant: I have this theory that the rise of the iPhone,…

Those are candy-bars to make you happy, just like the EHRC is keeping the leftists in line while we slowly shift toward an ordoliberal paradigm at the european level. For countries like France, Italy and even Germany, that means social regression and harmonisation by the bottom. >Yes, I would rather have decisions made by people in Brussels that understand what they're doing. Yay structural unemployment in the eurozo…

Intriguing but 3 questions:

How could shifting more towards Ordoliberalism (=government regulation to maximize competition plus a social safety net) be a bad thing? Quality of life is rather high in Germany after all.

Is there in fact evidence that unemployment is intentionally maintained in order to suppress inflation?

Even if your assertions are true, how would Brexit address any of these things and generally how would a balkanized Europe be more prosperous let alone more globally competitive than a unified Europe?

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#63

Post by soci »

As always, devil is in the details.

If you look at the fine print in the published "Guidelines for implementing Net Neutratily" [1] linked in the article you will see that there are 3 exceptions to the rule (a,b,c). Being "c" the one that should fear us most:

EXCEPTIONS

  a) "comply with Union legislative acts (...)
-> meaning that a court order can change Net Neutrality, hmmm ok.

  b) preserve the integrity and security of the network, of services provided via that network, and of the terminal equipment of end-users;
-> meaning that in order to guarantee the security of the network Net Neutrality may be avoided. I'm so-so on this one.

  c) prevent impending network congestion and mitigate the effects of exceptional or temporary network congestion, provided that equivalent categories of traffic are treated equally.
-> Meaning that ISPs can throttle specific categories of traffic at their own will.

This last one ruins the whole law. And this is not what me as European wanted. ISPs won :(

[1] http://berec.europa.eu/eng/document_register/subject_matter/...

[EDIT] typos

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#64

Post by [deleted] »

thr0waway1239 wrote: post #34
privateersman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. In the US you have a small number of telcos with a strong grip on the industry whereas in many (but not all) EU countries excessive choice reduces the problems. The thing to understand about net neutrality is it's a transfer of power from business to government. The devil is in the detail. If you look closely at the laws involved there are vague clauses that allow for extra government censorship and con…

Can you clarify who you are referring to as the do-gooders here? Everyone who is asking for net neutrality? And is the common people the group who is the victim of the poisoned chalice?

[deleted]

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#65

Post by objectivistbrit »

dmuneka wrote: post #60
objectivistbrit wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a property rights issue. Specifically, should private organisations be allowed to own major pieces of infrastructure? The European vision of capitalism is where you can own, say, a cafe or mobile app, and do what you want with it. However, something like a telecoms network or search engine is too important to be kept in the hands of ruthless big business, and the state needs to step in to control who said busine…

As a Brit, you should appreciate the level of infrastructure you get to enjoy. You are more than welcome to come live in the US with some of the most 'innovative' privately funded infrastructure. I'd be happy to swap my overpriced RCN internet with TalkTalk or not have to get a new wheel on my bike every year thanks to the pot-holed roads of New York.

US is big and sparsely populated. Also, telecoms there are heavily regulated. Contrary to common claims, there isn't a huge difference between the European and American models (both are free markets with heavy state involvement in pretty much all industries).

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#66

Post by hueving »

whybroke wrote: post #62
markonthewall wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are candy-bars to make you happy, just like the EHRC is keeping the leftists in line while we slowly shift toward an ordoliberal paradigm at the european level. For countries like France, Italy and even Germany, that means social regression and harmonisation by the bottom. >Yes, I would rather have decisions made by people in Brussels that understand what they're doing. Yay structural unemployment in the eurozo…

Intriguing but 3 questions: How could shifting more towards Ordoliberalism (=government regulation to maximize competition plus a social safety net) be a bad thing? Quality of life is rather high in Germany after all. Is there in fact evidence that unemployment is intentionally maintained in order to suppress inflation? Even if your assertions are true, how would Brexit address any of these things and generally how w…

Unification is counter-productive if you think that the goals of the group are bad.

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#67

Post by nitrogen »

cookiecaper wrote: post #53
headmelted wrote: post #30

It encourages me to see that the European court at least has some people on it that seem to understand that net neutrality is in fact a human rights issue. And this is why Brexit is so heart-breaking. I'm surrounded by people in my personal life who think it's a fantastic idea, but they're not the most... informed? Likewise for local politicians. (Side note to my rant: I have this theory that the rise of the iPhone,…

>It encourages me to see that the European court at least has some people on it that seem to understand that net neutrality is in fact a human rights issue. If everything is a human right, nothing is. At this point, what's the difference between a "human right" and a nice thing? >Yes, I would rather have decisions made by people in Brussels that understand what they're doing. The thing about centralized government is…

Human right: neutral communications

Nice thing: iPhone 6+

Human right: freedom of movement

Nice thing: Maserati

See the difference?

---

As for your second part about localization of politics, the tyranny of the majority is much more severe in hyper-local settings. Global issues like human rights cannot be entrusted to local governments whose local majorities are prone to divisiveness and discrimination.

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#68

Post by nitrogen »

heinrichhartman wrote: post #36
tajen wrote: post #26

Next fight : That ISPs advertise the minimum guaranteed bandwidth and are banned from advertising the maximum theoretical number. Then only we could measure that they do offer the same bandwidth with Netflix and Vimeo as they advertise. Net neutrality at its best. Edit: Of course the number will be very low because they have to (God forbid!) provision their network to serve this bandwidth to all customers during peak…

That's not likely going to happen nore is it a sensible thing to ask for. As an ISP how would you _guarantee_ the bandwidth for each endpoint? You would have to provision for the maximal capacity all over your network. Given that most people only utilize their channel 1% of the time, this is a huge waste! What's sensible to ask ISPs to do is: (a) Communicate historically experienced bandwith at each region (b) Provid…

As an ISP how would you _guarantee_ the bandwidth for each endpoint?

You guarantee that you will obtain x mbps of peering/transit per customer, per network. Then you advertise x as your minimum speed, even if off-peak usage can spike to 30 times x.

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#69

Post by nordify »

objectivistbrit wrote: post #65
dmuneka wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit, you should appreciate the level of infrastructure you get to enjoy. You are more than welcome to come live in the US with some of the most 'innovative' privately funded infrastructure. I'd be happy to swap my overpriced RCN internet with TalkTalk or not have to get a new wheel on my bike every year thanks to the pot-holed roads of New York.

US is big and sparsely populated. Also, telecoms there are heavily regulated. Contrary to common claims, there isn't a huge difference between the European and American models (both are free markets with heavy state involvement in pretty much all industries).

Even if we go as far as to say that the models are similar, the implementation differs hugely. Especially with regards to telecoms.

Re: Victory for Net Neutrality in Europe

#70

Post by reitanqild »

soci wrote: post #63

As always, devil is in the details. If you look at the fine print in the published "Guidelines for implementing Net Neutratily" [1] linked in the article you will see that there are 3 exceptions to the rule (a,b,c). Being "c" the one that should fear us most: EXCEPTIONS a) "comply with Union legislative acts (...) -> meaning that a court order can change Net Neutrality, hmmm ok. b) preserve the integrity and security…

IMO, IANAL

> -> meaning that a court order can change Net Neutrality, hmmm ok.

It would be weird for a court to order anyone to break net neutrality.

> -> meaning that in order to guarantee the security of the network Net Neutrality may be avoided. I'm so-so on this one.

The intention here seems to be to allow (D)DOS attack mitigation etc.

> -> Meaning that ISPs can throttle specific categories of traffic at their own will.

Note that the law is very clear that this only is allowed "provided that equivalent categories of traffic are treated equally."

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