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Are PhD Students Irrational?

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Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#61

Post by nickpsecurity »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #57
nickpsecurity wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off-topic, whatever happened to DECA? Link is dead.

It's on Github after Google Code shut down, but progress is nonexistent since I got sidetracked trying to prove the type-system and type-inference algorithm work in Coq. I encountered so many errors in my own reasoning about that damn thing that I decided to not accept anything less than a formal proof. My willpower is wearing down, considering the effort it takes to achieve a full Coq development of something seriou…

Well, that's quite an honest assessment. Also supports the value of things like Coq in catching errors. Sorry to hear you're getting bogged down in them. Have you thought about canceling it for something less ambitious that extends top-tier, existing work or merges a few components together? Quite a lot of work out there that can benefit in real-world development that could use some extension or even fixing up of implementations.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#62

Post by eli_gottlieb »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #61
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's on Github after Google Code shut down, but progress is nonexistent since I got sidetracked trying to prove the type-system and type-inference algorithm work in Coq. I encountered so many errors in my own reasoning about that damn thing that I decided to not accept anything less than a formal proof. My willpower is wearing down, considering the effort it takes to achieve a full Coq development of something seriou…

Well, that's quite an honest assessment. Also supports the value of things like Coq in catching errors. Sorry to hear you're getting bogged down in them. Have you thought about canceling it for something less ambitious that extends top-tier, existing work or merges a few components together? Quite a lot of work out there that can benefit in real-world development that could use some extension or even fixing up of imp…

Currently, I aim to get the proof development complete in my Copious Free Time and publish a small paper detailing it regarding something more like an extension to Haskell or SML than a complete language of my own.

I also have a friend who's trying to Solve Programming Languages by building a dependently-typed systems programming language with modules and type-classes and such, so I can pass him the code and proofs if I really so burningly desire to see my work "ship" somewhere, somehow.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#63

Post by alpineidyll3 »

Futurebot wrote: post #46

If you enjoyed this piece, you should read "Planet Loser": "If you actually want to know why people persist in going to grad school, or trying to be screenwriters or musicians or professional athletes or actors — or, if we’re getting really real about it, journalists and writers, the kind that write for The Atlantic — it’s because our culture insists relentlessly that certain kinds of work have intellectual and aesth…

So do you think that a 20 year old deterministically absorbs the values of their culture? Don't be so paternalistic. College students are not children; they are not your students.

The value of a PhD is not high because the life of a PhD is desirable. Academia provides a (flawed) society with a permanence and thoughtfulness that competes with non academic america. Leisure and camaraderie is everywhere. It provides a sense of identity which is hard to find, so supply is high and price is low.

Within the cult there are bad actors who misrepresent their value, and selfishly collect rewards. Nothings perfect.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#64

Post by tgamba »

Futurebot wrote: post #46

If you enjoyed this piece, you should read "Planet Loser": "If you actually want to know why people persist in going to grad school, or trying to be screenwriters or musicians or professional athletes or actors — or, if we’re getting really real about it, journalists and writers, the kind that write for The Atlantic — it’s because our culture insists relentlessly that certain kinds of work have intellectual and aesth…

The problem is the focus on worldy success, not the pursuit of a dream. Artists, writers and musicians who pursue their passion consistently over the years are no longer concerned with 'making it'; the endeavour becomes the stuff of their life. I am not a famous musician or writer, but practicing music and writing has made me a better coder and a better person and kept me out of a great deal of trouble.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#65

Post by nickpsecurity »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #62
nickpsecurity wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's quite an honest assessment. Also supports the value of things like Coq in catching errors. Sorry to hear you're getting bogged down in them. Have you thought about canceling it for something less ambitious that extends top-tier, existing work or merges a few components together? Quite a lot of work out there that can benefit in real-world development that could use some extension or even fixing up of imp…

Currently, I aim to get the proof development complete in my Copious Free Time and publish a small paper detailing it regarding something more like an extension to Haskell or SML than a complete language of my own. I also have a friend who's trying to Solve Programming Languages by building a dependently-typed systems programming language with modules and type-classes and such, so I can pass him the code and proofs i…

"regarding something more like an extension to Haskell or SML than a complete language of my own."

Smart. Might work out.

" building a dependently-typed systems programming language"

I've seen a few of those: ATS, Idris, Bedrock in a way. Has your friend published any work showing off his? Or is it still in pre-alpha development?

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#66

Post by ryuker16 »

hprotagonist wrote: post #8

I'd say it entirely depends on the assumption that to get a PhD means that you want to be a professor (and teach in the US at a reasonably decent school and get tenure one day). If that really is your goal, then yes, you should think very hard before you do it. The Adjunct scam is really, truly atrocious. Adjucts and grad students can unionize now, though, and it only takes one strike in the e. coli labs for a resear…

unionize? Too many scabs waiting to take their spots while rich foreign kids and local trustfarians don't need the money.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#67

Post by ryuker16 »

hprotagonist wrote: post #8

I'd say it entirely depends on the assumption that to get a PhD means that you want to be a professor (and teach in the US at a reasonably decent school and get tenure one day). If that really is your goal, then yes, you should think very hard before you do it. The Adjunct scam is really, truly atrocious. Adjucts and grad students can unionize now, though, and it only takes one strike in the e. coli labs for a resear…

unionize? Too many scabs waiting to take their spots while rich foreign kids and local trustfarians don't need the money.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#68

Post by xapata »

throw_away_777 wrote: post #35
xapata wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a time when a failed postdoc was in a very depressing financial situation. Corporations didn't want to hire a PhD, because they were overqualified and likely had some anti-authoritarian streak that led them to attempt academia. STEM PhDs are more in demand these days, but some still don't know it and need encouragement (and sometimes a little help) transitioning to industry.

I agree with your sentiment, and think that postdocs are the real problem with academia currently. Besides the low pay, being a graduate student is not a bad job - you get good job security, interesting problems, good mission, and can somewhat choose your boss. A postdoc is a terrible, soul-crushing, low-pay job. At least for the physics postdocs I have seen - I have heard that in the humanities a postdoc is actually…

One of the saddest conversations I've ever had was with a two-time assistant professor who had just been denied tenure (second chance is the last).

A mutual friend had referred him to me for advice on how to transition to industry. I gave him a pep-talk and explained how to build a portfolio to show skills that matter in the workplace. I think he turned things around, but for a little while he couldn't stop thinking about the "wasted" years. PhD, postdoc(s), 3-5 years of assistantship, repeated once, ... it's a tragedy for such a smart, capable person to succeed so much and yet feel like they failed.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#69

Post by Chinjut »

alpineidyll3 wrote: post #63
Futurebot wrote: post #46

If you enjoyed this piece, you should read "Planet Loser": "If you actually want to know why people persist in going to grad school, or trying to be screenwriters or musicians or professional athletes or actors — or, if we’re getting really real about it, journalists and writers, the kind that write for The Atlantic — it’s because our culture insists relentlessly that certain kinds of work have intellectual and aesth…

So do you think that a 20 year old deterministically absorbs the values of their culture? Don't be so paternalistic. College students are not children; they are not your students. The value of a PhD is not high because the life of a PhD is desirable. Academia provides a (flawed) society with a permanence and thoughtfulness that competes with non academic america. Leisure and camaraderie is everywhere. It provides a s…

Not just 20 year olds but everyone is affected by, and can't help but absorb a great deal of, the values of their culture. That's what it means to call it their culture.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#70

Post by jdoliner »

zasz wrote: post #21
rahimnathwani wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"universities haven’t met student-generated demand with a commensurate supply of full-time, tenure-track faculty" This reverses the normal definitions of 'supply' and 'demand' to make a weak point. Universities are the buyers, i.e. they have demand for faculty. The PhD graduates are the suppliers (of their labour), i.e. they can compete to fulfill that demand. So to say universities have a responsibility to hire peop…

He meant undergraduate-driven demand for teaching faculty. You don't seem to have read the article.

Probably my fault for the confusion initially. I read it in the context of the article but still got confused about which the reversal of supply and demand.
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