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If English were written like Chinese (1999)

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Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#61
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

继续 21 strokes jixu 8 strokes

继续 is 21 strokes when printed, but less when foreigners in China like me write them when we handwrite them quickly. 继 is 5 strokes handwritten (纟,䒑,丨,八,乚 each written in one stroke) and 续 is 4 (纟,十over乛,氵,人 each as one stroke), so that's 9 altogether. Mainland Chinese who learn handwriting at school have a way of writing each character with only one or two strokes.

If you're only counting pen-down-pen up as a single stroke regardless of smooth movement, then any cursive word in any latin-based alphabet is a single stroke, unless it has an 'i/j' or some sort of diacritic in it (some people cross 't' in their cursive, some people do it separately).

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#62
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As a result Japanese people (probably Chinese too) have a hard time processing some of the English syllables. This creates difficulty in learning English for Japanese and Chinese." We can also say that American/English have a hard time processing some of the Japanese/Chinese syllables. All the languages I speak a little bit have distinctive sounds that are difficult for most non-native speakers to master unless you…

What I am saying is that in English, after learning 26 letters, you can read any combination of them. If you try to see how many possible syllables there are, there would be many thousands. Combinations like "eng" "lish" can't be properly put in Japanese phonetic characters because you can't put "eng" directly, you have to use "en gu ri shu", inserting vowels all over the place. Japanese can't properly learn English…

> It's because each syllable has to have its own ideograph

False. If you look at the history of writing systems, we have seen at least three instances of logographic systems developing into syllabries. Egyptian hieroglyphs eventually devolved into representing only consonants (vowels in Semitic languages largely represent only inflectional variations, so they're far less necessary). When this language and its descendants passed into Greek, distinct letters were added for vowels yielding an alphabet; when it passed into Indic languages, the consonants were systematically modified (e.g., rotating the glyphs) to make CV letter-form pairs. Mayan broke its logography into CV syllables (much akin to how Japanese derived the kana from kanji).

Mayan and the Indic scripts are great examples of the flexible of syllabic systems. Mayan is not a CV-syllable language, yet they still used CV glyphs. The syllable "bak" could be written, for example, as the glyphs for "ba" and "ka". Indic scripts, representing languages that have phontactics as complex as English, yet they also retain basic CV letters.

Even Japanese plays similar games: each letter doesn't represent a syllable, it represents a mora. The syllable "nan" would be represented as having 2 mora: "na" "n". Similar, the phrase "ですか" is written "de su ka" but is pronounced "de ska" in most dialects.

The Japanese kana orthography isn't really limiting its ability to add more sounds any more than the Latin alphabet limits our ability to represent sounds foreign to Latin speakers 2000 years ago like n of 'sing' (IPA: ŋ) or the th of 'the' (IPA: ð).

What makes English hard to pronounce for Japanese is that our phonotactics are very incompatible. You can see the same effects for English speakers trying to pronounce, say, Czech: "strč prst skrz krk" is pronounced exactly like it looks (well, you have to know that č is the 'ch' of chocolate in Czech), yet it is still difficult for an English person to pronounce. It's not that we can't make those sounds, it's that we can't put them in that order (/ŋgis/ makes for another good example".

The other difficulty Japanese speakers have is that some phonemes aren't recognized as separate--the infamous l/r comes up here. In general, Japanese don't hear a difference between them. Native English speakers can have the same reaction to other cases: both ś and sz in Polish sound like 'sh' to an English speaker, but they represent two distinct phonemes.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#63
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the added bonus that it's accurate. Referring to these characters as they are originally: Chinese. Some people don't seem to be very happy about that fact.

There's too much politics involved. Try to find any even the slightest mention of proto-Korean language roots (which are Japonic) in Korean.

[deleted]

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the added bonus that it's accurate. Referring to these characters as they are originally: Chinese. Some people don't seem to be very happy about that fact.

Who? The word kanji literally means "Chinese characters" lol

In that 口 article yesterday, several commenters seemed angry that the author referred to kanji as "Japanese characters".

So apparently this is some kind of thing, that some people take seriously. New one on me.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#65
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fucked up writing system that is pretty beautiful as well. Unfortunately it has limited the number of syllables (combinations of sounds) in the language. Why? Because they have to make due with just 2000 phonetic sounds (335 in modern Japanese) while English letters can combine in many more ways and form a much more diverse array of sounds. As a result Japanese people (probably Chinese too) have a hard time pr…

"As a result Japanese people (probably Chinese too) have a hard time processing some of the English syllables. This creates difficulty in learning English for Japanese and Chinese." We can also say that American/English have a hard time processing some of the Japanese/Chinese syllables. All the languages I speak a little bit have distinctive sounds that are difficult for most non-native speakers to master unless you…

I think that if Americans try, it's a lot easier to go to the Japanese phonemes; given that they are effectively a subset of English phonemes (with some variation). That said, it seems that Americans feel like they're making a disrespectful accent when they're getting closer to pronouncing things correctly. They would rather be authentically bad than sound like they're making fun of an accent. Here in Canada we have this problem even when kids are learning Québecois French in school; they think they sound like they're making fun of Francophones when they get close to good pronunciation.

An American English speaker can generally approximate る and similar sounds far more easily than a Japanese speaker will learn to pronounce l or figure out the th in the. That's assuming that the English word they're trying to say doesn't have consonant clusters, which (aside from nasal consonant pairs) simply do not exist in Japanese. It really is not equivalent.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#66
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I am saying is that in English, after learning 26 letters, you can read any combination of them. If you try to see how many possible syllables there are, there would be many thousands. Combinations like "eng" "lish" can't be properly put in Japanese phonetic characters because you can't put "eng" directly, you have to use "en gu ri shu", inserting vowels all over the place. Japanese can't properly learn English…

> It's because each syllable has to have its own ideograph False. If you look at the history of writing systems, we have seen at least three instances of logographic systems developing into syllabries. Egyptian hieroglyphs eventually devolved into representing only consonants (vowels in Semitic languages largely represent only inflectional variations, so they're far less necessary). When this language and its descend…

One nitpick: ですか is not pronounced "de ska" it's closer to "de s' ka"; They elide the full vowel, but they insert a stop instead of moving on to the consonant (in order to retain the prosody).

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#67
One thing that is glossed over slightly in these discussions is the distinction between collections of sound-meaning compound characters where the rebus is the same but the words aren't cognate, and where the words are cognate.

I've read in some places that the scribes attempted to use the same rebus for cognate words but I everything I could find online was a re-hashing of wikipedia (or wherever the wikipedia article is sourced from) which states "However, the phonetic component is not always as meaningless as this example would suggest. Rebuses were sometimes chosen that were compatible semantically as well as phonetically."

I'm not sure how important this really is or how many characters that share a common rebus are cognate. But to my aesthetic senses I much prefer characters to contain etymological information than just the pronunciation when the character was first written.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the added bonus that it's accurate. Referring to these characters as they are originally: Chinese. Some people don't seem to be very happy about that fact.

Who? The word kanji literally means "Chinese characters" lol

My understanding (as a speaker of neither language) is that Japanese usage has diverged a fair bit from Chinese roots.

The phonetic bits, for example, are based on how Japanese speakers of the time thought the equivalent Chinese sounded, with allowances for Japanese and Chinese having radically different phonics. And then you do that a few more times because the language both evolved in parallel, and you end up in a situation where each kanji can have more than one phonetic representation based on the original Chinese pronunciation. It can also have a phonetic representation based on the Japanese word that means the same thing, which will invariably be something radically different since Chinese and Japanese aren't terribly closely related languages.

So while they might be using the same writing system, the fact that it's a fairly elegant writing system for Chinese doesn't imply that it's elegant in Japanese. Not any more than the Roman alphabet being a very good writing system for Latin implies that English's writing system isn't a bit of a mess.

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the added bonus that it's accurate. Referring to these characters as they are originally: Chinese. Some people don't seem to be very happy about that fact.

Who? The word kanji literally means "Chinese characters" lol

Kan Ji or Letters of the Han Dynasty

Re: If English were written like Chinese (1999)

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who? The word kanji literally means "Chinese characters" lol

My understanding (as a speaker of neither language) is that Japanese usage has diverged a fair bit from Chinese roots. The phonetic bits, for example, are based on how Japanese speakers of the time thought the equivalent Chinese sounded, with allowances for Japanese and Chinese having radically different phonics. And then you do that a few more times because the language both evolved in parallel, and you end up in a…

For not knowing either language, your knowledge is impressive. There are actually Japanese-originated Kanji, some that have no analogue in Chinese.
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