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Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

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Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#61

Post by toasterlovin »

watchtheworld wrote: post #14

The idea of the vegan diet being "good for humanity" isn't solely about land use which this article focuses on. It's mostly about use of energy. Vegan diet: food from land -> truck -> grocery store -> my mouth. Meat/dairy/what have you: food from land -> truck -> animal's mouth -> truck -> grocery store -> my mouth. And when it comes to meat it means years feeding and water etc. until the product can actually be sent…

It's a pretty common trope that meat requires more resources to produce than plants, but it is wildly inaccurate.

Rather than breaking things down by meat or plant, we should just be looking at cost per calorie.

There are classes of plants which use much less resources than meat to produce a single calorie. These are generally grains, potatoes, and anything which produces edible oils (olive oil, canola oil, etc.)

There are also classes of plants which require much more resources than meat to produce a single calorie. Generally speaking, all fruits and vegetables, especially leafy greens (which are an order of magnitude more expensive per calorie than meat).

So, veganism or vegetarianism are not necessarily good for the environment. If you switch to being a vegan/vegetarian, but your grocery bill stays the same, then you environmental impact is probably about the same.

Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#62

Post by bane »

marricks wrote: post #38
DiabloD3 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the larger problems I've found with the vegan diet is, where do you source your Omega 3 from? ALA (found in flax and chia seeds) has low bioavailability as opposed to EPA and DHA found in fish and eggs. Not only that, flax and chia seeds are very high in Omega 6, thus promote dangerous levels of inflammation. So, can a vegan please explain to me how your community has managed to solve this?

Fish get their Omega 3 from algae, and so that's probably the best and most direct way to get it. That's what Soylent does for Omega 3's using bio reactors. Also, vegans are healthier than the average population with lower rates of death in major categories like heart disease[1]. In other words, from the standard american diet to veganism, it's generally much healthier which I think is the better comparison to make.…

In most measures, vegetarians of most types are healthier than nearly all vegan populations and tend to not suffer from the typical dietary deficiencies that plague vegan populations.

I gotta run, but there's quite a few studies available online about this.

Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#63

Post by marricks »

SwellJoe wrote: post #48
DiabloD3 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the larger problems I've found with the vegan diet is, where do you source your Omega 3 from? ALA (found in flax and chia seeds) has low bioavailability as opposed to EPA and DHA found in fish and eggs. Not only that, flax and chia seeds are very high in Omega 6, thus promote dangerous levels of inflammation. So, can a vegan please explain to me how your community has managed to solve this?

I feel like it's important to point out that the modern approach to diet of picking one nutrient as a magic one, is, well, kinda magical thinking. Omega-3 fatty acids, beyond the minimum amount your body needs, haven't been shown to be a cure for anything and supplementation hasn't been shown to improve outcomes or performance. You need it, yes; but you probably don't need to build your diet around it. e.g. from Wiki…

I completely agree that laser focusin on one nutrient isn't good, buy even if you were fixated on omega 3s bioreactors making algae is healht and way more efficient than fish, and where they mostly get their omega 3's anywyas.

Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#64

Post by bane »

sova wrote: post #21

Rather misinformed. Also, if farmland is the issue, has nobody in the science world noticed the magic of hydroponic cultivation? Vertical gardening is possible, a skyscraper has the footprint of a huge field when you use every floor to grow food. Can't do that with cows.

Why not? We do it with humans.

Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#65

Post by bitL »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #55
bitL wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Athletic and mental performance. Paleo alongside intermittent fasting is super popular amongst endurance athletes reporting significant energy increase comparing to popular liquid vegan diet; a low-carb, high fiber, medium fat/protein diet also has significant positive effects on some mental disorders (like the currently "popular" BPD or ADHD). And you often see vegans with significant health problems later in life a…

No-one's "forced" to be an endurance athlete tho.

Not if you are a female; males are thrown into a hypercompetitive world to fight for resources/females and anything that gives you an edge helps.

Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#66

Post by Pxtl »

DominikPeters wrote: post #10

Going vegan isn't supposed to be as good for humanity as possible -- it is supposed to be as good as possible for all conscious beings, including non-human animals. It would be rather surprising if the best diet for humans would also be the best diet for humans and animals taken together. On the other hand, it is encouraging that these two goals do not conflict for the most part: The paper only finds pretty minimal l…

Besides that, the article is talking about 100% global adherence to the vegan diet. As long as there are some vegetarians, the non-human-only farmland will have use.

And even with 100% veganism, assuming no miracle crop is invented to use that additional land, it was still a pretty slim gap between the vegan diet and the "optimal" ones.

Really, the article kind of buries the lede when it puts veganism under the microscope considering that its numbers show how moving away from the modern meat-heavy diet would like triple the food supply.

Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#67

Post by Pxtl »

patcheudor wrote: post #22
DominikPeters wrote: post #10

Going vegan isn't supposed to be as good for humanity as possible -- it is supposed to be as good as possible for all conscious beings, including non-human animals. It would be rather surprising if the best diet for humans would also be the best diet for humans and animals taken together. On the other hand, it is encouraging that these two goals do not conflict for the most part: The paper only finds pretty minimal l…

Exactly. The idea of the vegan diet being "good for humanity" isn't something that crosses the minds of many "die-hard vegans", quite the opposite in fact. Many have a profound dislike of humanity and choose a vegan diet out of concern for the animals harmed in food production. Morrissey would be an excellent example of someone who really takes that philosophy to heart. For the record, I'm a vegetarian, my daughter i…

"profound dislike for humanity" seems unfair.

Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#68

Post by rimantas »

watchtheworld wrote: post #14

The idea of the vegan diet being "good for humanity" isn't solely about land use which this article focuses on. It's mostly about use of energy. Vegan diet: food from land -> truck -> grocery store -> my mouth. Meat/dairy/what have you: food from land -> truck -> animal's mouth -> truck -> grocery store -> my mouth. And when it comes to meat it means years feeding and water etc. until the product can actually be sent…

Omg, people go and find out how agriculture works if you only have that primitive view of it. Field, truck, my mouth… my ass.

Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#69

Post by astigsen »

One thing that is often overlooked is the impact on biodiversity. Nothing kills off as many species as converting an area to cropland. Turning it into an enforced monoculture destroys the habitat for all the other plants and animals that would usually live there.

Grazing animals can co-exist with other life, and some cases like forest grazing [1] (which used to be the standard way of grazing animals in europe and is slowly gaining traction again), has been shown to actually increase biodiversity.

So paradoxically enough, if what you care about is biodiversity and the livelihood of animals, you might consider reducing your consumption of cropland produced products like vegetables and grains in favor of meats from grazing animals.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvopasture

Re: Being vegan isn’t as good for humanity as you think

#70

Post by joveian »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #20
cryodesign wrote: post #15

A pretty weak article and omits any new developments in the future of food production. The main argument of the article appears to be that some farm land won't be used (perennial cropland) when people are on a vegan diet. Well, then use that space to build some aeroponic or hydroponic farms [1]. You'll get produce all year around. Other studies have shown that it's not sustainable if we'd have to rely on meat to feed…

One of the larger problems I've found with the vegan diet is, where do you source your Omega 3 from? ALA (found in flax and chia seeds) has low bioavailability as opposed to EPA and DHA found in fish and eggs. Not only that, flax and chia seeds are very high in Omega 6, thus promote dangerous levels of inflammation. So, can a vegan please explain to me how your community has managed to solve this?

As others have mentioned, there are a variety of algae based vegan EPA and DHA supplements on the market now, but most people probably don't need to worry about it. Some people do not feel good when switching to a vegan diet, and EPA/DHA supplementation might be something to try. There is a lot of vegan food in the world and two vegans can easily have completely distinct diets.

One particular supplement I like is Green Foods True Vitality, which I think is the least expensive for vegan DHA supplementation: http://www.greenfoods.com/store/p/44-True-Vitality-Vanilla.a...

It isn't bad on its own, but I mix it with my usual soy drink which is NOW Foods soy milk powder (which is just powdered soybeans; sadly the only equivalent with rice is rediculously expensive), (vegan) cane sugar (because it is much less expensive than maple syrup :( ), a dash of ground whole stevia herb (to reduce the amount of sugar needed), and a little vanilla powder. Quite delicious :).

Edit: After reading SwellJoe's excellent reply again I would also like to emphasise that many fruits and vegetables have really excellent nutritional profiles and just eating more of them can solve most nutritional issues. Even with vegan diets it is quite easy to not do that, but it is almost certianly the healthiest option.

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