Live data from Hacker News

AI’s Language Problem

technologyreview.com

61–70 of 244 posts

Re: AI’s Language Problem

#62
post #9

This is a long metaphor but work with me here... There are many types of application programmers, but there are 2 types in particular that are interesting. One of them is the purely technology-driven developer. He uses all the new tools, he's read Knuth's books a hundred times, he knows how to build elegant systems. However, he only takes enough interest in the business as is necessary to know what to build. At the e…

Actually thes two parts do exist in tandem, it's just that those engineers/designers (a role you that can do the same) are usually independently successful and have repeatedly built high revenue products or started a company themselves.

The major flaw i see in manager/corp/team analysis of workers is that it misses out on a portion of the population that is genuinely independently functional and creates and shares the value they create. They don't work for companies because they either don't need to or own their own. These are the ideals worth keeping in mind.

Re: AI’s Language Problem

#63
post #9

This is a long metaphor but work with me here... There are many types of application programmers, but there are 2 types in particular that are interesting. One of them is the purely technology-driven developer. He uses all the new tools, he's read Knuth's books a hundred times, he knows how to build elegant systems. However, he only takes enough interest in the business as is necessary to know what to build. At the e…

[deleted]

Re: AI’s Language Problem

#64

I think about the AI language problem a lot while raising my kids. The article notes the word "forever" and how an AI must distinguish the literal from the figurative meaning of the word in context. My five-year-old still doesn't grasp the literal meaning of this word as "never-ending." To him, "forever" is simply a very very long time. He has the same problem with the concept of "infinity," where the word means both…

> His young mind has not yet recognized the paradox that "infinity" is the biggest number, so what does it mean when I say, "Infinity plus one"?

Paradox? In the extended reals, where infinity is the biggest number, infinity plus one gets you infinity, just as you'd expect. In, say, the study of ordinal numbers, where there are many infinite quantities, it doesn't make any sense to talk about "the biggest number".

Re: AI’s Language Problem

#65

Small child have to learn language from nothing. They just figure it out through exposure and practice. Even pets learn some language. This is the model to emulate. Ultimately language use requires a few skills: * a good parser * motor cognition/coordination * a good memory * semantics/context * vocabulary * situational awareness The first two in the list are what small children struggle with the most. Fortunately, w…

You have some good points, but this naive approach of handcoding "cognitive modules" was tried many times in 20th century, and it didn't work at all.

But look at what Deepmind does: it takes these ideas (and also ideas from systems neuroscience), implements them as differentiable modules and trains them on data in end-to-end fashion. This works really well.

Learning is very important, much more important than architecture. If you have a model that can learn you can add more structure later - again this is what modern deep learning is all about.

Re: AI’s Language Problem

#66
post #51
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the 'overall representation of the world' requirement is pretty key here. Language in AI is often treated as its own class of problem, with the assumption that there is somehow enough signal in the raw mess of examples provided to any given learning system (usually just plain text, stripped of any prosody, emotion, cultural context, imagery; any of the other modalities of communication available to a demonstr…

Grounding language in other sense modalities (multimodal learning) is a thing. We can even generate captions from images and generate images from captions, albeit, not perfectly. Another grounding source is related to ontologies. We are already building huge maps of facts about the world like "object1 relation object2". Another source of "common sense" is word embeddings. In fact it is possible to embed all kinds of…

image caption is a separate, albeit related problem to what I'm talking about.

Ontologies are much the same; they are interesting for the problems they solve, but it's not clear how well those problems relate to the more general problem of language.

word embeddings are also quite interesting, but again, are typically based entirely off whatever emergent semantics can be gleaned from the structure of documents. It's not clear to me that this is anymore than superficial understanding. Not that they aren't very cool and powerful. Distributional semantics is a powerful tool for measuring certain characteristics of language. I'm not sure how much more useful it will be in the future.

Uunsupervised learning from video and images is a strictly different problem that seems to me to be much lower down the hierarchy of AI Hardness. More like a fundamental task that is solvable in its own universe, without requiring complete integration of multiple other universes. Whether the information extracted by these existing technologies is actually usefully semantic in nature remains to be seen.

I agree that we'll get there, somewhat inevitably; not trying to argue for any Searlian dualistic separation between what Machines can do and what Biology can do. I'm personally interested in the 'how'. Emergent Strong AI is the most boring scenario I can imagine; I want to understand the mechanisms at play. It may just be that we need to tie together everything you've listed and more, throw enough data at it, and wait for something approximating intelligence to grow out of it. We can also take the more top-down route, and treat this as a problem in developmental psychology. Are there better ways to learn than just throwing trillions of examples at something until it hits that eureka moment?

Re: AI’s Language Problem

#67
post #8

Deep learning has succeeded tremendously with perception in domains that tolerate lots of noise (audio/visual). Will those successes continue with perception in domains that are not noisy (language) and inference/control , which the article touches on? I think it really is unclear whether those challenges will require fundamental developments or just more years of incremental improvement. If fundamental developments…

It is already succeeding on language tasks, see https://research.facebook.com/research/babi/ It is funny how every AI post on HN turns into a speculative discussion forum full of words "I think", "likely", "I suspect", "My guess" etc, when all the research is available for free and everyone is free to download and read it to get a real understanding of what's going on in the field. >what I see is the fact that networ…

My skepticism is not about "succeeding" academically in the sense that research groups get better and better scores on Kaggle competitions.

My skepticism is about success in the sense of commercially useful systems that can process language and function "off the leash" of human supervision without the results being dominated by unacceptably bad results.

Look at the XBOX ONE Kinect vs the XBOX 360 Kinect. On paper the newer product is much better than the old product, but neither one is any easier or fun to use than picking up the gamepad. In the current paradigm, researchers can keep putting up better and better numbers without ever crossing the threshold to something anybody can make a living off.

Re: AI’s Language Problem

#68
AI as it's defined today is fundamentally reactive. If we applied the AlphaGo methodology to language, it would come up with what a good response would be to words it heard, but the purpose of such a conversation would be the conversation itself.

A real conversation is about conveying understanding, not about the words spoken.

AlphaGo was trained on however many zillions of games and playing against itself, but does it actually understand anything about the game? Or can it simply react to the current state of the game and suggest what the next move should be. It will never have a leap of intuition causing it to say "the only winning move is not to play."

Intelligence is not purely reactive.

Re: AI’s Language Problem

#70

AI as it's defined today is fundamentally reactive. If we applied the AlphaGo methodology to language, it would come up with what a good response would be to words it heard, but the purpose of such a conversation would be the conversation itself. A real conversation is about conveying understanding, not about the words spoken. AlphaGo was trained on however many zillions of games and playing against itself, but does…

How would one prove the opposite? That a human actually understands anything about the game and isn't reacting to the state of the game to suggest the next move? I'm not saying AI as it exists today understands, I'm just saying this "understanding" metric isn't a good metric unless it works in reverse.
Post reply on HN