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UK government changes website guidelines due to buggy screen readers

insidegovuk.blog.gov.uk

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Re: UK government changes website guidelines due to buggy screen readers

#61
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain why it is better than, say, "say"? (neat, huh?)

They could put the e.g. inside a dfn tag or teach the screen readers how to read it.

> They could put the e.g. inside a dfn tag or teach the screen readers how to read it.

I'm afraid not. AFAIK, screen readers don't apply any special processing for DFN tags. Speaking as someone who's using a screen reader to read this thread and proofread this comment, I'm not sure I'd want them to either, and I hadn't even heard of them until today.

Also, screen readers are able to speak through several, possibly hundreds, of different speech engines, so you would have to teach each of those engines to deal with these corner cases separately. Given that many of them were developed ten plus years ago and are now no longer under active development despite continued widespread usage, that's not really a realistic goal.

N.B. AFAIK is spoken by my screen reader/speech engine combo as "uh-fake". As a blind software developer, I have much bigger problems to worry about than memorising how my software speaks abbreviations. I of course don't speak for everyone though and clearer communication is always an excellent goal.

Re: UK government changes website guidelines due to buggy screen readers

#62
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a screen reader translate FFS?

Abbreviations on the web can be expanded using the abbr tag: FFS This also helps reduce ambiguity about the meaning of an acronym, improving the communication of semantic intent. That said, it appears that expansion of isn't consistently supported[1]. I suspect most screenreaders would simply say "Eff Eff Ess". [1] http://www.powermapper.com/tests/screen-readers/labelling/ac...

> I suspect most screenreaders would simply say "Eff Eff Ess".

Correct, thankfully. I don't really see a use case for screen reader-specific usage of the abr tag. If everybody else has to read "FFS", possibly having to look it up on Google to know what on earth it is, why wouldn't I also? Although I suspect that as a sighted user, you can mouse-over some text marked up with abr and see the expanded form.

Re: UK government changes website guidelines due to buggy screen readers

#63
post #10
post #8

Is it actually officially correct to use "eg" instead of "e.g.", and "ie" instead of "i.e." in English? (UK, US, AU, or whichever else?) Both http://dictionary.cambridge.org and http://dictionary.com seem to show only "e.g." and "i.e." for me?

No, the correct form is "e.g." and "i.e.", and screen readers cope with those fine. People also get "etc." wrong a lot, writing it as "ect", which presumably screen readers would fail at, too. Since people get it wrong, and there are more natural ways of writing these, these guidelines seem quite reasonable.

> People also get "etc." wrong a lot, writing it as "ect", which presumably screen readers would fail at, too.

You seem to be assuming that a screen reader's job is to somehow communicate meaning. It isn't. It's my job to listen and decide what I'm hearing. If you read "ect.", your brain automatically corrects it to "etc." because you're used to seeing it often. It's probably subconscious, right? It works exactly the same for me. I'm well-versed in the spelling/grammatical/other errors many people make when writing, the only difference is that I consume them via my ears, not my eyes.

Or, to put it another way, think about a guide dog. Its job is to actually guide a blind person, make decisions, keep them safe. It actually has to think. I prefer my assistive technology as dumb as possible though, so I use a cane. Its my job to use the cane, take in what it's telling me about the ground and area immediately around me, and quickly make decisions based on that information. The screen reader is more like a cane than a guide dog, basically.

Re: UK government changes website guidelines due to buggy screen readers

#64
post #9

i.e., "We've decided it would be easier to make everyone who updates a page on the GOV.UK website change their language than to make everyone that makes screen reading software produce a product that reads screens correctly"

> i.e., "We've decided it would be easier to make everyone who updates a page on the GOV.UK website change their language than to make everyone that makes screen reading software produce a product that reads screens correctly"

See my previous comments in this thread to learn why this is necessary, and why it's unrealistic to expect screen readers to "just work™". It's a nice goal, but it won't happen.

Re: UK government changes website guidelines due to buggy screen readers

#65
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the correct form is "e.g." and "i.e.", and screen readers cope with those fine. People also get "etc." wrong a lot, writing it as "ect", which presumably screen readers would fail at, too. Since people get it wrong, and there are more natural ways of writing these, these guidelines seem quite reasonable.

> People also get "etc." wrong a lot, writing it as "ect", which presumably screen readers would fail at, too. You seem to be assuming that a screen reader's job is to somehow communicate meaning. It isn't. It's my job to listen and decide what I'm hearing. If you read "ect.", your brain automatically corrects it to "etc." because you're used to seeing it often. It's probably subconscious, right? It works exactly the…

> If you read "ect.", your brain automatically corrects it to "etc." because you're used to seeing it often. It's probably subconscious, right?

Not at all. Seeing errors like "ect", use of the wrong words like the all-too-common mix-up of "then" and "than", and even the omission of dots in things like "eg" and "ie" is very jarring to me. It usually pulls me out of automatic reading in order to consciously work out what the author actually meant. Even when I've worked it out, I find it hard to substitute the real meaning for what's literally there. Not that I necessarily blame the author, as I understand that mistakes do happen, but it does noticably harm readability for me.

I do find your description of your preference on assistive technology very interesting, as it differs from the preferences expressed by my visually impaired friends. They get varyingly amused and annoyed by their screen readers not understanding idiomatic things and reading them too literally. I wonder if the difference is that you're the kind of technical person that reads Hacker News, whereas they're both arty types who don't really do computers any more than the average person does. I suspect that were I to ever need to use a screen reader, I'd prefer the dumb ones like you do.

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