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How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

nytimes.com

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Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#61

Post by madaxe_again »

Fifer82 wrote: post #35
anexprogrammer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends where you live. In my part of the UK people were overwhelmingly in favour of leave. I wouldn't typically mention I was a remain voter as it was near sure to get me a discussion. Very few claimed the immigration directly - t'was about jobs, or more precisely the lack of them, therefore immigration. A good part of the region is not yet out of the 2008 recession, and house price growth is a joke. When…

I am not sure what I am saying, but I believe that a lot of the people voting, do not have the intelligence to vote. I met a couple of neds in Spain recently on the day of the vote, and they were like "Take it back, init, take it back and be great". I was like "What does that mean though??? Take back what??". "Take it back! We just need to run ourselves". Despite almost an hours worth of discussion, they were passion…

This is the nature of our democracy, however.

One could argue that one has a duty to educate, but you cannot force knowledge and reason upon people who do not wish it.

I saw much of the same on the brexit vote - one that stood out was someone i'd always thought was an intelligent man (he used to run a substantial investment bank), who I found screaming, froth-flecked, in my face about how I was a traitor for not voting for freedom, how I loved evil, how leaving the EU was a vote for freedom. He couldn't elaborate on anything, he could just shout louder. It doesn't matter to him even, he'll be dead soon. One of his sons is a us native with British citizenship working on an eu research grant in Scandinavia. So strong was his irrational hatred he voted to fuck his own son over. Oh, and this guy is your ivy league elite, as were many of the other codgers in the room with the same groundless hate, so there goes the argument of this piece.

The trimp/brexit voters aren't disillusioned youth, aren't the left behind, they're just your usually older traditional values crowd.

That all said, like it or lump it. You are in the same boat as these people, they are people, and they represent the majority of people.

I've spent most of my life trying to be tolerant of incredible stupidity, and I don't know if I'll ever fully succeed, but all you can do is grit your teeth, and keep quiet. You won't change their minds with any rational discourse, only emotional.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#62

Post by mpweiher »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #49
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early in my career I regularly visited towns like Middlesborough and Burnley, installing IT systems. There was a lot of unskilled and semi-skilled work available at those businesses that has either been shipped out to China or automated away. Those jobs aren't coming back, whether we are in the EU or not.

This is it exactly. Staying (and therefore nothing changing) was a really bad option for millions of people. Brexit was change. And maybe, just maybe it would be a change for good. Staying and project fear did not offer hope.

To change the things that are controlled by the UK government, you need to vote for a different UK government.

> Brexit was change

"I don't like my car, therefore I am changing pants"

Huh?

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#63

Post by tonyedgecombe »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #49
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early in my career I regularly visited towns like Middlesborough and Burnley, installing IT systems. There was a lot of unskilled and semi-skilled work available at those businesses that has either been shipped out to China or automated away. Those jobs aren't coming back, whether we are in the EU or not.

This is it exactly. Staying (and therefore nothing changing) was a really bad option for millions of people. Brexit was change. And maybe, just maybe it would be a change for good. Staying and project fear did not offer hope.

I'm not sure, the left wants to offer more welfare, the right crappy minimum wage jobs and the populists offer pie in the sky. I don't think any of them have a real solution.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#64

Post by ricksplat »

pyrale wrote: post #8
misja111 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the average banker has a greater desire for self-enrichment than say, the average lawyer or the average sales manager. And anyway, there's nothing wrong with a certain amount of greediness in a capitalist system, this is what drives innovation and efficiency. The problem with banking has been that the system is broken. Unlike other companies, mismanaged banks cannot go bankrupt because they drag the ent…

> And anyway, there's nothing wrong with a certain amount of greediness in a capitalist system, this is what drives innovation and efficiency. I wonder how many years will pass before people realize this mantra is an article of faith.

Ayn Rand's "Virtue of Selfishness" completely ignores, or fails to compare with it's vices.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#65

Post by guard-of-terra »

madaxe_again wrote: post #61
Fifer82 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what I am saying, but I believe that a lot of the people voting, do not have the intelligence to vote. I met a couple of neds in Spain recently on the day of the vote, and they were like "Take it back, init, take it back and be great". I was like "What does that mean though??? Take back what??". "Take it back! We just need to run ourselves". Despite almost an hours worth of discussion, they were passion…

This is the nature of our democracy, however. One could argue that one has a duty to educate, but you cannot force knowledge and reason upon people who do not wish it. I saw much of the same on the brexit vote - one that stood out was someone i'd always thought was an intelligent man (he used to run a substantial investment bank), who I found screaming, froth-flecked, in my face about how I was a traitor for not voti…

"he voted to fuck his own son over"

Now, that was both emotional and irrational.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#66

Post by reddytowns »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

I'm a little amazed at the tone of this article. People rent a home, and then exploit the democratic process in a beggar-thy-potential-neighbors strategy. They use things like rent control and other anti-migrant policies (e.g. anti-Google bus policies in SF, anti-Hijab laws in France) to enrich themselves at the expense of others. Because her wealthy uncles lost their job, and had a small drop in their standard of li…

"Tech bros" don't like their jobs outsourced to India. That's comparable to your examples, yet they are mostly upper class.

In addition, people are concerned about things that effect themselves. The elites don't care about the neighborhoods they don't live in, or the jobs they don't have to compete for.

But they do care about profit, and about getting richer. In all of the examples you gave, that motivation would work just as well as being "principled" as to explaining their allegiance to the opposite side of the issues as to that of the lower class.

If the world ends up 99.99% of us are either starving or doing jobs such as building a carbon fiber toilet for some rich guy's yacht, simply because the elite "own" everything, the world would be a worse off place, wouldn't you agree?

And, IMO, that's what will occur if we strip away all laws meant to protect the little guy.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#67

Post by [deleted] »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

I'm a little amazed at the tone of this article. People rent a home, and then exploit the democratic process in a beggar-thy-potential-neighbors strategy. They use things like rent control and other anti-migrant policies (e.g. anti-Google bus policies in SF, anti-Hijab laws in France) to enrich themselves at the expense of others. Because her wealthy uncles lost their job, and had a small drop in their standard of li…

[deleted]

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#68

Post by objectivistbrit »

madaxe_again wrote: post #54
objectivistbrit wrote: post #47

I'm pro-economic liberty and voted for Brexit. Every analysis like this has tunnel vision: yes, the free trade opened up by the EU brought prosperity to an entire continent. Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. But in 40 years the EEC has evolved into the EU, with a constitution, a parliament, a president, a national anthem, a flag, supreme law-making powers and a currency. Maybe th…

What's wrong with integration? You clearly think it's bad but don't say why. Ah, downvote me for replying with a question. Mature. I guess you don't have a reason that doesn't boil down to "I don't want foreigners next door"?

Downvote wasn't mine. I upvoted you to cancel it out. But thanks for dishonestly implying I'm racist (thereby proving my point), when my entire comment was on economic issues.

By integration I mean political integration. I think very large states have scale problems, large democracies in particular. (Look at India or the US). You either end up with populist parties who need to appeal to the lowest common denominator of hundreds of millions of people, or technocratic elites who ignore the people. The EU has 500 million citizens from 27 ancient nations, with wildly different cultures and economies. There's no way you can fuse them into one giant country, and the inevitable outcome is fuelling nationalism and populism centred around anti-EU resentment.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#69

Post by AnonymousPlanet »

objectivistbrit wrote: post #47

I'm pro-economic liberty and voted for Brexit. Every analysis like this has tunnel vision: yes, the free trade opened up by the EU brought prosperity to an entire continent. Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. But in 40 years the EEC has evolved into the EU, with a constitution, a parliament, a president, a national anthem, a flag, supreme law-making powers and a currency. Maybe th…

> The EU is a world-historical experiment in social democracy - free markets + state regulation + the welfare state. The consensus is that this system represents the current pinnacle of political evolution.

Where does the EU provide the means for a welfare state? Do jobless people get money from the EU? Any country can handle its own version of welfare state. There is no mandate from the EU.

The perception is usually actually the other way round: many people think the EU caters too much to the multinationals and bends over backwards to let the "turbo capitalists" have their way with the little people. At least that is what I hear from pretty much everyone I know in the south of Europe, the left in France and Germany, and UKIP supporters in the UK (think of the TTIP discussions). So which is it now? A socialist welfare state or bureaucrats pleasing bankers and corporations?

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#70

Post by madaxe_again »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #65
madaxe_again wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the nature of our democracy, however. One could argue that one has a duty to educate, but you cannot force knowledge and reason upon people who do not wish it. I saw much of the same on the brexit vote - one that stood out was someone i'd always thought was an intelligent man (he used to run a substantial investment bank), who I found screaming, froth-flecked, in my face about how I was a traitor for not voti…

"he voted to fuck his own son over" Now, that was both emotional and irrational.

So, despite his sons residency and employment both being dependent on the uk's continued membership of the EU, you think this was a rational, kind decision?
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