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Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

bloomberg.com

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Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#61

Post by hourislate »

Shivetya wrote: post #57
roymurdock wrote: post #25

The second "conspiracy theory" explanation presented in the article seems the simplest and most plausible: Close associates of the administration are major holders of the country’s bonds and...the government fears it’d lose their much-needed support if the payments stopped coming in. Efforts to obtain comment from government press officials on this and other aspects of the story were unsuccessful. Either that, or deb…

I tend to like the pride argument more. To default is to lose face in the international world and at home. Better to sacrifice to uphold one's promises. A false pretense when there is little respect outside of those receiving payments beyond their borders. Perhaps they think they would be admitting defeat and that would cause the coup to occur overnight?

Interesting that you would think Maduro and his Government have any honor. How could they possibly have any face left in the International world?

Communist/Socialist Governments typically use such financial vehicles among many others to systematically remove and transfer some/most of their countries wealth into their own/friends coffers through various arrangements with financial institutions et al all the time.

Just another day and another dollar. Pride/Honor have nothing to do with any decisions when it comes to stealing billions. The human cost isn't even part of the equation.

Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#62

Post by cmdrfred »

homero wrote: post #46
gohrt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are the supporters who are getting food, and opponent who are not? The starving public aren't meaningfully pro or anti any faction in government, they are civilians trying to scratch by.

The political parties. Imagine if registered democrats got food and republicans did not and changing is not allowed https://youtu.be/5SeVv277d0I

I don't know why you are getting downvoted, that seems to be exactly the case according to that video.

Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#63

Post by dragonwriter »

krapp wrote: post #55
SilasX wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so we're on the same page, do you understand the logic behind not paying extortionists? The "later" doesn't come, and the payment only makes them better at extorting you, and draws in more people to try the same. You typically won't get a better opportunity. If you come up with a rationalization for how you absolutely must defer the reckoning today , why won't you come up with one tomorrow as well?

The US government could have done something about the banks after having bailed them out without wreaking havoc, but they didn't. Not because the government didn't have the power to, but because it apparently didn't have the will. Simply letting the US banking industry collapse and take the country with it as a power play of refusal to give in to "extortion" would have been insane.

> The US government could have done something about the banks after having bailed them out without wreaking havoc

It could have done something simultaneously with bailing them out, too; and it frequently has in bailouts of "too big to fail" organizations.

Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#64

Post by [deleted] »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #59
roymurdock wrote: post #25

The second "conspiracy theory" explanation presented in the article seems the simplest and most plausible: Close associates of the administration are major holders of the country’s bonds and...the government fears it’d lose their much-needed support if the payments stopped coming in. Efforts to obtain comment from government press officials on this and other aspects of the story were unsuccessful. Either that, or deb…

Just as a first-order guess of your second half, what you describe sounds highly illegal. The first part makes more sense - and it's not a conspiracy theory - they want to keep access to bond markets.

[deleted]

Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#65

Post by danharaj »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #51
danharaj wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will submitting be better or worse than the current situation in Venezuela? If anyone claims that it will be worse, I'd like to see their justification for that statement. The current situation is shit. Paths forward should be judged against their alternatives and their possibilities. Global powers love that they can coerce the impoverished into decades-long deals of economic servitude and their ideology pushes it…

What's your better option?

The state of Venezuela could not in any way be justly called representative of the people of Venezuela. I'm an anarchist, i would like to see the abolition of all states but i'm well aware that most people find that unreasonable. At the very least, no solution that involves negotiation between Maduro's dictatorship and their international creditors is a just representation of the interests of the people.

Democratic economic self-determination is alternative possibility. It may work, it may not work, but it's an option that attempts to achieve justice.

Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#66

Post by JBReefer »

hourislate wrote: post #61
Shivetya wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to like the pride argument more. To default is to lose face in the international world and at home. Better to sacrifice to uphold one's promises. A false pretense when there is little respect outside of those receiving payments beyond their borders. Perhaps they think they would be admitting defeat and that would cause the coup to occur overnight?

Interesting that you would think Maduro and his Government have any honor. How could they possibly have any face left in the International world? Communist/Socialist Governments typically use such financial vehicles among many others to systematically remove and transfer some/most of their countries wealth into their own/friends coffers through various arrangements with financial institutions et al all the time. Just…

Cultural/Male honor is huge in LatAm

Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#67

Post by AnimalMuppet »

danharaj wrote: post #65
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your better option?

The state of Venezuela could not in any way be justly called representative of the people of Venezuela. I'm an anarchist, i would like to see the abolition of all states but i'm well aware that most people find that unreasonable. At the very least, no solution that involves negotiation between Maduro's dictatorship and their international creditors is a just representation of the interests of the people. Democratic e…

> The state of Venezuela could not in any way be justly called representative of the people of Venezuela. [snip] At the very least, no solution that involves negotiation between Maduro's dictatorship and their international creditors is a just representation of the interests of the people.

Very, very true.

Unfortunately, there's this group of thugs with guns who run Venezuela, and who aren't going to go away even though the people of Venezuela would like them to. Given that the Maduro "government" de facto exists, and refuses to quit, what should be done?

> Democratic economic self-determination is alternative possibility.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean letting the people of Venezuela vote on what should be done to rescue their economy? If so, you aren't going to get that, because step one of what needs done is getting the country out of the hands of Maduro and his crew, and Maduro isn't going to let anyone vote on whether that happens (or anything else about the management of the economy).

So far as I can see, any path forward is going to have to coerce Maduro into doing something that is anathema to his ideology. If you've got an alternative that works with the existence of Maduro, I'd love to hear it.

Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#68

Post by rdiddly »

When a nation defaults it becomes the IMF/World Bank's bitch. "Austerity" is imposed, well-connected foreign interests get to run roughshod, and that nation is systematically (oh I mean coincidentally) looted. If you ever needed proof that these loans were designed to accomplish precisely that (a way for lenders to extract wealth from those nations), look no further than the fact that here you have an article that seems to be COMPLAINING about how Venezuela is NOT defaulting.

Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#69

Post by oldmanjay »

rdiddly wrote: post #68

When a nation defaults it becomes the IMF/World Bank's bitch. "Austerity" is imposed, well-connected foreign interests get to run roughshod, and that nation is systematically (oh I mean coincidentally) looted. If you ever needed proof that these loans were designed to accomplish precisely that (a way for lenders to extract wealth from those nations), look no further than the fact that here you have an article that se…

What could we evil rich white people loot from Venezuela at this point?

Re: Venezuela Refuses to Default, and Few People Seem to Understand Why

#70

Post by bobwaycott »

hourislate wrote: post #61
Shivetya wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to like the pride argument more. To default is to lose face in the international world and at home. Better to sacrifice to uphold one's promises. A false pretense when there is little respect outside of those receiving payments beyond their borders. Perhaps they think they would be admitting defeat and that would cause the coup to occur overnight?

Interesting that you would think Maduro and his Government have any honor. How could they possibly have any face left in the International world? Communist/Socialist Governments typically use such financial vehicles among many others to systematically remove and transfer some/most of their countries wealth into their own/friends coffers through various arrangements with financial institutions et al all the time. Just…

> Communist/Socialist Governments typically use such financial vehicles among many others to systematically remove and transfer some/most of their countries wealth into their own/friends coffers through various arrangements with financial institutions et al all the time.

Oh, come on. Such activities happen the world and history over regardless of the ostensible public political veneer.

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