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Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

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Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#61

Post by marklgr »

mtreis86 wrote: post #32
mrmffh wrote: post #2

I'd argue this is a positive trend. Hopefully it leads to more innovation in governance.

I agree. I find groups of people scary. Not in the anxiety manner. I mean that I don't know of a single instance of a person doing massive damage to anyone or any thing, when compared to damage by groups or by people with group backing. All the worst atrocities of the past few centuries were carried out by groups of people. The US constitution is supposed to protect individuals from groups, but that seems to have bee…

But humans mostly want to be part of some group, and that's the problem with the current trend of ultra-individualism: people will be much easier to influence by dangerous groups that fill their need for belonging. If there were a stronger sense of community in the first place, instead of the strong emphasis on the autonomous, self-sufficient and competing individual, one could wonder if radical religious or ultranationist groups would be as significant.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#62

Post by Throwaway23412 »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #6

In my opinion this is the inevitable political crisis that unrestrained neoliberalism has lead us to. [ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/witnes... ] I'd say this is the end of the ideology but I'm too much of a realist and I expect the powers that be to now double down on it and then try and profit from it all going up in flames. (But please don't assume I am some kind of socialist/anti-capitalis…

This coincides with a podcast interview I listened to with a renowned CPA. He said that the existing tax code in the U.S. is set almost entirely to incentivize growth, entrepreneurship, and investment. So, the tax code is full of all kinds of breaks for employers, job creators, investors, owners of assets, etc. The tax rate on most long-term capital gains is significantly less than income tax. Salaried individuals be damned. When Warren Buffett claims, as he has in the past, that he pays a lower tax rate than most of his employees, he's not exaggerating.

This tax strategy aggressively pursued during the Reagan administration, supported during the Clinton administration, and maintained during the Bush and Obama administrations relies on the assumption that growth among the asset-holders translates into more jobs and better pay for everyone ("trickle-down economics"). This assumption seems asinine now because of course the wealthy are going to save whatever profit they make. That's how the wealthy get wealthy in the first place! The Great Recession has only exposed this more. Employers realized "Actually, I didn't need those positions anyway." Other employers realized "There's enough demand for jobs here, so I don't actually have to increase salary that much." Property values may have collapsed during the Great Recession but a lot of long-term property owners realized "People still need a roof over their heads. Demand for rent is at an all-time high. I have no incentive to lower rent."

Consequently, wealth inequality grows. Wages stagnate. Homeownership stagnates. Rent rises with inflation. The percentage of 25- to 34-year-olds living at home with their parents is the highest it's been in nearly a century. The young and educated see the situation, realize that they have no power over an establishment bending to the whims of the upper-class and corporations, and grow more and more apathetic. The old and uneducated are fed populist nonsense and anti-immigration scapegoating, thinking that driving out the brown people will get them the jobs and pay that employers have no interest in giving them. Trust is an emotion. A belief. What makes you less likely to trust others? Insecurity. And why wouldn't people be insecure in this economic environment?

(I realize that this is a very U.S.-centric comment and I apologize to any other nationalities for whom this does not describe the political environment.)

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#63

Post by throwaway1979 »

luso_brazilian wrote: post #50
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

I agree with most of your comment except with this comparison: > Try to imagine a USA where someone from Texas would not be able to move to LA or NYC or the other way around. Border controls against movement on every state-border. > If you find that hard to imagine try to come up with a really good argument why it should be any different within the EU. Before the recent migratory crisis free movement of people was no…

I'm not well-versed in EU politics but I find some parts of what you say surprising. After Brexit, there were reports of racist signs some idiots had put up. These weren't against syrian refugees, but rather against a particular former eastern bloc country.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#64

Post by pluma »

dschiptsov wrote: post #3

Why should people trust any government in the first place? Governments nowadays came to replace institutions of organized religions as the way to gain a high social status and security, and hence became as bloated, inefficient and corrupted as old, unreformed churches of the past. No sane people would 'trust' such social formations which sole purpose is self preservation and parasitic growth.

I think governments are still more trustworthy than businesses, though.

At least with governments you get to pretend that you elect people into office who have your interests at heart.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#65

Post by jolux »

narrator wrote: post #20
pilsetnieks wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that the masses are dumb, and the ruling elites are smart?

It's not so much that the masses are dumb, but that propaganda techniques have been so refined and optimized that people have no idea who or what they have to fight to get what they want. There are a lot of ideological systems that are created simply to misdirect the public's attention away from actual important issues and toward infighting or intellectual dead ends or towards the goals of the propagandists. Let me g…

>Let me give you one example: the murder rate in the US is the lowest its been since 1963. The way the media directs the publics attention and magnifies the coverage of the violence that does happen makes the public think that there's a huge terrorism, crime and gun violence crisis.

Yep, this is true. However mass shootings over the same period of time have been going up. Compared to the rest of the industrialized western world, we do have a gun violence crisis. Considering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r..., the US is sitting between Uruguay and Montenegro with a rate of 10.54 per 100,000. Whether or not it's been falling since 1963 (and I know it has been) it's still at an appalling place and we deserve better. Not to privilege the West over everywhere else but we are closer to most other so-called "Western countries" culturally speaking than countries that are not traditionally part of the West. Within that framework, Finland has the next-highest rate, and it's at 3.25 per 100,000 (i.e. about three times less).

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#66

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

m-i-l wrote: post #43
mrmffh wrote: post #2

I'd argue this is a positive trend. Hopefully it leads to more innovation in governance.

Like there was plenty of "political innovation", especially in Europe, after the Great Depression in the 1930s? I'd argue that didn't work out too well. Hopefully this time its different.

You can hope, but does Trump and brexit look different? And if so, does it look better?

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#67

Post by Kurtz79 »

jacquesm wrote: post #37
tajen wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rant isn't off-topic: Oftentimes the distrust for govt is reworded by socialist persons as "Remove those highly paid CEOs". But sometimes the distrust isn't against corporates. I the English case, a good part of the distrust is that elites are bringing foreigners that compete with the masses without a public debate on immigration quantity. Meanwhile liberals censor the debate by tagging those who speak up as fas…

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

"One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include countries with a huge range of incomes and costs-of-life."

The theory is that by including these countries in the Union their conditions eventually will improve (through EU funding and access to the single market) to a point that people won't have any reason to emigrate, basically removing the root cause of immigration.

It makes a lot of sense, but it is in the best of case a long and difficult process, and people facing loss of jobs and diminishing wealth will see solutions like "let's build a wall", or "let's get out of the EU" as appealing, it's human nature.

Maybe instead of going "all in, all the way" with the single market and free movement (that personally I have thoroughly enjoyed and consider it a huge net positive), the EU should have made the process more gradual.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#68

Post by dschiptsov »

pluma wrote: post #64
dschiptsov wrote: post #3

Why should people trust any government in the first place? Governments nowadays came to replace institutions of organized religions as the way to gain a high social status and security, and hence became as bloated, inefficient and corrupted as old, unreformed churches of the past. No sane people would 'trust' such social formations which sole purpose is self preservation and parasitic growth.

I think governments are still more trustworthy than businesses, though. At least with governments you get to pretend that you elect people into office who have your interests at heart.

It seems that a government service originally was within that "natural" framework of division of labor (which exists even for non-human species). Defense and law enforcement and other necessary specializations are obvious examples. Cells has specializations which makes higher life forms possible.

But as long as government employees start to form its own cast or a social class with higher social status than mere soldier, policeman, teacher or a civil servant the whole thing is being transformed into an ugly social hierarchy of corruption, greed and self-preservation, which is so common in the history of all nations and cultures.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#69

Post by luso_brazilian »

throwaway1979 wrote: post #63
luso_brazilian wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of your comment except with this comparison: > Try to imagine a USA where someone from Texas would not be able to move to LA or NYC or the other way around. Border controls against movement on every state-border. > If you find that hard to imagine try to come up with a really good argument why it should be any different within the EU. Before the recent migratory crisis free movement of people was no…

I'm not well-versed in EU politics but I find some parts of what you say surprising. After Brexit, there were reports of racist signs some idiots had put up. These weren't against syrian refugees, but rather against a particular former eastern bloc country.

There is undoubtedly an uptick of xenophobic reactions by some groups in England, even against Portuguese studying and working there (friends of mine even). There is and there will always be a segment of the population that will behave like that, blaming their problems on the "others".

But I don't believe it would ever reach the current proportions in all of the EU without the current migrant crisis and the lack of proper coordinated response.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#70

Post by pjc50 »

newjersey wrote: post #58
yxhuvud wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another mistake regarding extraEU immigration is that they put all the responsibility on the Schengen border countries instead of creating a common solution for that.

> a common solution I'm sorry for my naivety but what does that mean? I've heard this so many times. Do they want German troops on their borders? Do they want to sit back and relax while Germany feeds, clothes, and shelters their troops and law enforcement? Now, a common solution for the refugee crisis is not possible because the problem is not the refugee crisis. The problem is that the EU is TOO WEAK. Perhaps a nai…

The EU should have the right to collect taxes.

I'm sure there are a lot of subtleties involved here but this is what I see from outside. I'd appreciate any insight as to why the naive approach is valid or invalid.

a) Would require a constitutional change in many EU states, especially Germany where some of the changes to the financial ESM were challenged: http://europeanlawblog.eu/?p=1057

b) Collecting taxes implies full budgetary control over EU states. This leads to ...

c) It would be very, very unpopular, especially in the current environment. It was bad enough when Greece effectively had to hand a budget veto to its creditors. Trying to make taxation EU-wide is basically a red flag to populist Eurosceptic movements everywhere.

Remember, the US only regards Federal sovereignty as superior to State sovereignty as a result of a brutal civil war the outcome of which is still not fully accepted. In the EU the member states are still sovereign.

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