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Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

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Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#61

Post by kaitai »

rayiner wrote: post #2

> It proposes investments in computer science and engineering education . . . and attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. These sound good in theory, but in effect they're an industry-specific labor subsidy. When the government "invests" in STEM education, what happens is that the companies that need to hire engineers save money both as a result of reduced training costs…

Agreed. People here are mostly thinking "brilliant computer scientist" or "will cure cancer," but many universities have degree programs that are revenue generators, requiring full tuition payments from students and attracting many foreign nationals, which may not be held to the same standards as other programs. These programs serve plenty of students from China and Saudi Arabia whose parents are making an investment in getting an American option for the their child or the family. This is a very rational decision, but I don't think that it serves US interests to give an automatic green card to a kid from (pardon my apparent condescension) Directional State U because his parents paid enough to get him to scrape through a master's in geology or CS.

I'm at a big state U, mildly insulated from the pressures to develop a program at which anyone can succeed, but I have a lot of academic friends who have encountered significant pressure from administrations to keep pass rates high in revenue-generating STEM programs (many of them masters' programs). Attaching a green card to the diploma is a boon to these programs and some non-US students: all the incentives are there to just keep taking that full tuition and graduating students without working them too hard. Win-win, and it cuts down on the end-of-semester "I have to leave the country if I fail!" conversations, which I've had several times and are always unpleasant. These micro-level problems could lead to a flooding of the market with people whose educations just aren't that great.

Coming from a family of immigrants, I'm all for making green card processes more efficient. Knowing America's education system, attaching a green card to diplomas of STEM graduates is pay-to-play and that's not cool.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#62

Post by yummyfajitas »

rayiner wrote: post #2

> It proposes investments in computer science and engineering education . . . and attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. These sound good in theory, but in effect they're an industry-specific labor subsidy. When the government "invests" in STEM education, what happens is that the companies that need to hire engineers save money both as a result of reduced training costs…

Nothing you said is restricted to STEM education. Do you favor eliminating subsidies for K-12 as well? If not, why not?

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#63

Post by kaitai »

Spooky23 wrote: post #42
thecolorblue wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...faulty alternative email service... Do you have a source for this? It was my impression that nothing was out of the ordinary about her email server, and the rules around it were vague.

Do some Googling. Anyone who isn't Hillary Clinton would be in prison right now for doing what she did.

Like Colin Powell?

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#64

Post by anthony_romeo »

arthulia wrote: post #10
seeingfurther wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a good thing? What would be some negative consequences?

Wages going down and competition going up for people in the tech industry.

But fewer complaints of H1-B wage slavery (note: I'm exaggerating somewhat), which also suppresses salaries. Hard to say which is more significant an effect.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#65

Post by Eyas »

wwwwwwwwww wrote: post #45
droopyEyelids wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me want to cry when I think of all the scummy cheating students I went to college with and the way my school refused to deal with their behavior.

pretty much this. At my school it's an almost universal phenomenon among international students. They literally run a cheating cartel that shares completed labs, tests, and homework. They even have a guy that they buy to take their tests for them. the school doesn't take cheating very seriously - one time a guy was on his phone looking up answers in the middle of a test. the professor told him to put it away, and he…

This hurts quite a bit because of the correlation it seems to be making between international students and cheating. I do agree that degrees should mean something, which means anyone benefiting from such 'cheating cartel' should not reap the fruits of being called a degree holder of an institution.

But a comment like this makes me wonder if this is how I am viewed as a non-citizen graduate of a 'good school' who performed well above average in their class. Credentials like a degree are never enough to prove someone's worth/skill, of course, but this comment seems to suggest I might be facing additional pressure to prove my worth because I'm foreign-born. I was not aware this might need to be something I should be cognizant of.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#66

Post by _greim_ »

arthulia wrote: post #10
seeingfurther wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a good thing? What would be some negative consequences?

Wages going down and competition going up for people in the tech industry.

The tech industry isn't zero-sum though, even from just a purely selfish "can I get a job" POV. More talent in the pool will arguably make the industry bigger, rather than diluting the value of that talent. There's just so much room to grow.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#67

Post by mindslight »

> Hillary rejects the false choice between privacy interests and keeping Americans safe. She was a proponent of the USA Freedom Act, and she supports Senator Mark Warner and Representative Mike McCaul’s idea for a national commission on digital security and encryption. This commission will work with the technology and public safety communities to address the needs of law enforcement, protect the privacy and security of all Americans that use technology, assess how innovation might point to new policy approaches, and advance our larger national security and global competitiveness interests.

Unsurprisingly, it's more Orwellian garbage.

To these "people", what's done at airports is security, even though it manifestly makes everyone less safe by separating us from our luggage, unpacking and displaying our stuff for all to see, stripping us of our tools, and creating a perfect chokepoint for the scene of their next 24 hour tragedy.

It's not surprising that captains of the private surveillance industry endorsed these policies, but individuals would have to be fools to think this means anything besides more regressive information totalitarianism.

(also, "Doesn't she look tired?")

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#68

Post by GrumpyYoungMan »

kylestlb wrote: post #57
GrumpyYoungMan wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? An increase in citizens trained in a highly intellectually demanding field and encouraging immigration of some of the best and brightest of other nations makes it more than worthwhile to pursue.

If this plan goes thru, maybe a university should undertake some sort of advanced accreditation process to be able to award green cards. I would hazard a guess that some universities (state unis?) aren't necessarily attracting the best and brightest. Anecdotal, but I took a few masters CS courses at an average state uni, and the foreign students had a similar academic rigor and aptitude as the general uni population…

Even if it were only one in a hundred foreign students that turned out to actually be exceptionally talented, taking them all is a drop in the bucket relative to overall incoming immigration, both legal and not. (Even if the ratio were one in a thousand, it would still not be all that bad; the STEM student population is not all that large.)

Moreover, even if most foreign born students in a STEM program were merely as good as native students, as you suggest, that still puts them intellectually and educationally well above the average citizen, let alone the average immigrant.

There is no way that it does not make sense to offer foreign STEM students green cards, so long as the university is reasonably accredited.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#69

Post by sigmar »

talmand wrote: post #49
simonh wrote: post #3

Interesting. I expect a series of highly detailed policy announcements on complex issues from Hillary over the coming months. I'm guessing she's realised Trump will be completely out of his depth on anything like this and unable to respond effectively.

I suspect Hillary is out of her depth on the subject as well. Her advisors, on the other hand, may not. I see no reason Trump cannot hire advisors just as experienced in the field as Hillary.

>I see no reason Trump cannot hire advisors just as experienced in the field as Hillary.

The "he can get experts too" argument is fine, except for the fact he has publicly spoken out saying all experts are "terrible."

>Referring to criticism that he could be better schooled on matters of foreign policy, Trump suggested he would do just as well, if not better than the current or past administrations without anyone providing input.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-...

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#70

Post by sologoub »

jordanb wrote: post #9

> attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. HAH! I knew this was going to be in there. Of course it's a gigantic bailout to the universities. STEM grad programs are already full of foreign nationals trying to get a slot in the advanced degree H1-B track. This would absolutely turbocharge that: buy a degree from whatever fourth rate American university for $xxx,xxx and value…

For it to be a golden ticket, someone has to hire them at a good salary. If the person went to 4th rate school and has no skills to compete in the job market, it's not really a golden ticket and not a drain on the economy as they don't qualify for a lot of things.

On the other hand, if the person is capable and can attract and sustain a lucrative career, they'll contribute to economy and taxes.

As someone else mentioned in this thread - having the ability to job hop for foreign workers prevents the exploitative wages from sticking and reduces incentives for companies to substitute for cost reduction. H1-B was originally "meant" (a.k.a. sold) to fill in labor gaps, not reduce costs...

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