I think elixir is a better choice.
If you need features provided by BEAM/OTP it sure is
My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
61–70 of 240 posts
Re: My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
#62Re: My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
#63I love Clojure, and I use it in every project where I have control over the technology, but I do agree with the points raised by Ashton Kemerling. Clojure is beautiful, and backed by beautiful theories, but its implementation needs to be clean or it will eventually develop enough special cases that its beauty will be ruined. In some sense, you could say this is what happened to Ruby, though there the allowance of "sp…
I don't see what Ruby's “beautiful philosophy” is. Here are some examples of philosophies I actually consider beautiful, regardless of the result they led to: (0) Lisp, Scheme, Forth: “A small extensible core language beats a fixed large language.” (While Common Lisp is actually pretty large, there's a rather small subset of it from which the rest can be built.) (1) ML, Haskell: “Let's see how much we can do using ty…
> "And, even if it did, “developer happiness” isn't a technical criterion anyway."
It's a guiding principle, it doesn't have to be a technical one.
For what it's worth, I'd say Elm also has this philosophy, possibly Elixir too (though I'm not as familiar with Elixir).
Re: My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
#64Something that is often very hard to understand (it took me years to do so). Is that maintaining a language is insanely hard. Everything has a cost. Let me give a good example: A few years back someone submitted a patch that improved the error messages in Clojure. Worked great, just a single extra "if" and a message. It was committed to master. Then people's code got way slower. Why? Well this was a often used functi…
You probably should have stated that you work for Cognitect.
Re: My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
#65I love Clojure, and I use it in every project where I have control over the technology, but I do agree with the points raised by Ashton Kemerling. Clojure is beautiful, and backed by beautiful theories, but its implementation needs to be clean or it will eventually develop enough special cases that its beauty will be ruined. In some sense, you could say this is what happened to Ruby, though there the allowance of "sp…
I don't see what Ruby's “beautiful philosophy” is. Here are some examples of philosophies I actually consider beautiful, regardless of the result they led to: (0) Lisp, Scheme, Forth: “A small extensible core language beats a fixed large language.” (While Common Lisp is actually pretty large, there's a rather small subset of it from which the rest can be built.) (1) ML, Haskell: “Let's see how much we can do using ty…
I'll bite.
Ruby has a beautiful and consistent object / module system, a beautiful integration of functional and object oriented programming paradigms, and extreme powerful metaprogramming. All of those things are pretty wrapped up in its design philosophy which contains a whole bunch more than developer happiness.
Yes, Ruby has warts. So do all the other languages you listed. It is helpful to be able to see both the good and bad in languages and not get hung up battling them against each other.
Re: My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is one architecture that is made possible by clojure: http://tonsky.me/blog/the-web-after-tomorrow To build it outside of clojure ecosystem, you would need to first build all the pieces of the clojure ecosystem
> To build it outside of clojure ecosystem, you would need to first build all the pieces of the clojure ecosystem That's simply untrue, and even the author's conclusions contradict your point. You can already do all of these things with just javascript. And if you're arguing that javascript has rebuilt the entire clojure ecosystem, then what is the non-aesthetic case for clojure? I like clojure a lot and I've made a…
What do you think the time delta would be between building it in JS vs Clojure would be? Just curious.
Re: My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
#67I think this article is spot on. But. I think the root cause here is that many of the tools are build by the community. Great tools cost a lot of money to build, and you need to build the right thing at the right time, the cost needs to be spread across the comminuty. The community is growing and tools are improving. The first generation tools with all their rough edges are being replaced by simpler tools that have i…
I couldn't agree with you more. I've been wanting to learn Clojure for years now, but I'm not going to fight with an IDE for hours to do so.
You could have had a repl going in about the time to took you to compose and write this statement.
I'm not saying that to be snarky, but I'm just pointing out how quick it actually is.
brew install leiningen
lein repl
Re: My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
#68I think elixir is a better choice.
I was thinking of learning a modern language for the web back end. After analysing elixir, go and clojure I decided to go for clojure. Uhmmm, maybe go? I don't know :X. Stick with php? Meehhh
You could do worse than learning modern php. Esp. if you have some experience with it and as long as you are ready to leave bad habits behind. (Going for a full stack framework might help here by more or less forcing you to do things the right way.)
Re: My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
#69As a dev programming in Clojure professionally day to day this complaint (core team not fixing/prioritizing bugs) seems absurd to me.
The only example given for a bug is not even a bug but undefined behavior triggered by undocumented API usage.
If the author means clojure.spec by "greenfield development" (I don't see what else he could mean) he should really reconsider his complaint since clojure.spec is going to do what he is asking for (throwing a runtime error during development if you use clojure.set with the wrong datatypes).
My impression over the last few years is that the core team became truly excellent in reacting to users needs and reports often instantaneously, especially Alex Miller and David Nolen on the CLJS side.
Re: My Increasing Frustration with Clojure
#70Odd, in two years I've never been bit by a single one of these bugs. And if I had, I could probably pretty easily shrug them off. My frustration came from the lack of a type system, and that there's no "myThing." (myThing-dot) to give you intellisense. Even many dynamic language editors have some variant of this now. So coding in Clojure involves too much looking stuff up and memorizing stuff, and is way slower than…
Cursive IDE also does this quite well.