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Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

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Re: Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we talking about ideological diversity or ethnical diversity?

I'm talking about the former, the latter i guess is at least somewhat correlated with differing opinions too. Reaaly its the vast difference in size that matters -- USA has SO many differing constituencies with differing needs and wants and opinions. Norway is a municipal government by comparison.

I agree: I believe if you look at average incomes, rapid transit, and geography within a given state or city, you would definitely see different needs.

The average income in San Francisco, which has very good rapid transit solutions is $83k. The average income in Lancaster, Ca (a city at the edge of the Mojave) has an average household income of $51k. Busses are its rapid transit du jour. People need cars there, cheap cars, and they drive far each day.

Alabama, Kentucky, New Mexico, could the cities therein afford an electric car?

Re: Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

#62
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is turning UK year by year...

Can you elaborate?

The current government wants to sell off the Flytog (Airport Train). This is a state owned enterprise that even the seriously capitalist Norwegian financial magazine Kapital says is one of the best run companies in the country and should not be privatised. There have been serious suggestions that Statoil should be sold off completely. The electricity system has been privatised even though most of the energy is generated by rain that can hardly be said to be owned by anyone.

Re: Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to offend, but is this a serious question? Ideological diversity can be measured by simply conducting public opinion polls on a range of public policy issues (social, economic, foreign, domestic, etc etc). This is a pretty well established science. Add in the distribution of said opinions -- a lot of different opinions in about the same mix everywhere is much different from large concentrated enclaves in…

I feel like you are pulling the discussion in an unrelated direction. You seem to be implying that the US is the only place with diversity and that that somehow is an excuse for the US not having social security measures common in other countries. Also what is the range of opinions in the US and how does it compare with the range of opinions in Norway? > THEN you get into the differing needs of the peoples themselves…

> You seem to be implying that the US is the only place with diversity and that that somehow is an excuse for the US not having social security measures common in other countries.

100% nope. Where did you get that? I'm in favor of social safety nets. This entire thread is about how easy it is to enact things like "No petrol based cars by 2025".

That's easy to do when you've got 4 million people spread over a small amount of space who come from similar backgrounds. That's harder to do with 300 million people spread over a large amount of space who come from different backgrounds. A small club is much easier to manage than a large club, I don't see what's so hard to comprehend about this.

> But are these requirements really that fundamentally different?

Yes... insofar as you get groups of people who stop thinking that it's their responsibility to cover the costs of the other group. Should people in North Dakota pay for national flood insurance of people who live in southern flood prone regions, even though it's basically guaranteed to flood there eventually? Should people in New Hampshire pay to replace homes lost in california forest fires even though it's basically guaranteed to burn in certain places? What you think is "right" on this issue doesn't matter. What matters is that people in those regions have differing opinions on the matter, and it is objectively harder to get them all to agree than a small country where people tend to have the same problems concentrated in a small place they all share.

Throw in the really controversial stuff like social issues, and the left and the right constantly trying to push their vision of it on the whole country at once, and you can see why maintaining a continent sized empire is more logistically challenging that keeping a small country together.

Re: Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? What stops any state in the US from doing similar things? Genuine question. California for example routinely establishes new and stricter (compared to other US states) environmental rules governing emissions and whatnot. Legalizing pot is similarly fairly out of the mainstream and it is being done independently by several states.

The Clean Air Act allows the federal government to give CA the ability to set alternative standards for car emission controls, but it isn't likely it allows CA to ban all fueled vehicles.

They could almost certainly make the price of gas so expensive via taxes that it effectively bans them though.

Re: Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Clean Air Act allows the federal government to give CA the ability to set alternative standards for car emission controls, but it isn't likely it allows CA to ban all fueled vehicles.

They could almost certainly make the price of gas so expensive via taxes that it effectively bans them though.

...aaaand the federal government (via congress, the executive, or the courts) could find some way to intervene and challenge that and hold it up indefinitely.

Re: Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

#66
post #3

Off topic: Anyone watch Okkupert (occupied in English)? The French-Norwegian made drama about how a modern European country would act if war were to happen there today (like it kind of has in Ukraine...). http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4192998/

I like the idea and the story, but it felt like there were dozen of characters, and everything revolved only around them. As if there was only one restaurant, one journalist, one bodyguard, one of this and one of that, and somehow they were related even before the story began. That would be perfectly fine for a sci-fi, superheroes, or where the story needs it (Sense8), but here it felt a bit strange.... Though that to be said, once you accept this little peculiarity, the show was good, and I'll watch the 2nd one too...

And to get back on topic, it definitely brought to my mind the idea how one country may quickly become isolated, because of puristic choices driven for a better life for the whole of the humanity. That by itself would keep me watching it.

And thanks for mentioning it!

Re: Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

#67
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate?

The current government wants to sell off the Flytog (Airport Train). This is a state owned enterprise that even the seriously capitalist Norwegian financial magazine Kapital says is one of the best run companies in the country and should not be privatised. There have been serious suggestions that Statoil should be sold off completely. The electricity system has been privatised even though most of the energy is genera…

Regarding Statoil. The government currently owns about 1/3 of it. The oil income for the state does not come from the profit of the company but the taxes they put on the companies that extract oil (which is about 80%) and the sale of licenses through Petoro. Selling Statoil (and the other ones) have absolutely no comparison to what Thatcher did in the 80s if that is what you are insinuating.

Regarding the power, the majority of the plants are owned by Statkraft, a 100% government owned company and is most definitely not privatized.

Flytoget runs well because even though it is owned by the government, they have had a very hands off approach and let them operate without interference. The same can be said of Statoil, the only reason it has done so well is that the government has been mostly hands off. My father was in the top management before retirement and has been very clear on this. Whenever the government tried to interfere it just made problems.

In essence, as a fellow Norwegian i disagree with you on these subjects (and some of what you write is simply not true).

Re: Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

#68
I'll keep banging on this since I haven't yet heard a satisfactory answer: what are you going to do about people who park on the street or in garages they do not own?

Overnight charging systems are for homeowners. Even with a (high end, optimistic) public charge station time of 30 minutes, if there are just 4 people ahead of you in line, that's 2.5 hours out of your day.

Yes self driving may fix this eventually, but what if we are not there by 2025?

Re: Norway reportedly agrees on banning new sales of gas-powered cars by 2025

#69
post #6

It's not that petrol cars will be forbidden but buying a new non zero emission car in 2025 will be financially not beneficial, according to Norwegian press. 99% of the electricity in Norway comes from hydro power plants, it's a huge exporter of gas and oil and it's rich. That makes it easier to make such a progressive decision but congrats for setting the first deadline.

The average car tax in Norway is on average 102%. Electric cars, and Hydrogen cars have no tax.

The effect is that the Tesla model S cost roughly the same as a BMW 5-series, or Mercedes E-class.

Non-zero-emission cars aren't exactly financially beneficial already. However, long-term they would want to tax ZE cars as well (at least the standard 25% VAT), so hence the fossil cars will need to become even more expensive.

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