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Bootcamps vs. College

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Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#61

Post by llamataboot »

llamataboot wrote: post #54
madmax96 wrote: post #32

I have a slightly more pessimistic view of the situation: Sure, bootcamp grads can write a web application just fine; after all, it's usually only CRUD. But what value are they bringing to an organization? Why would I pay them the same amount as a college graduate who undoubtedly has more total knowledge not only in CS, but in other areas as well? Ideally, a college should expose students to a diverse range of knowle…

Yes, but then I would argue that a mid-career switcher like me (bootcamp here - now employed full time as a programmer for 2+ years) brings a TON of value to your organization. Rather than a fresh-out-of-college person, I have a Master's Degree in my first field, tons of experience working with diverse stakeholders, meeting deadlines, dealing with people I may not get along with, getting to consensus, etc etc -- as w…

(Also, I had been doing HTML/CSS/Wordpress for a decade on the side before wanting to get into backend programming, many of my classmates had similar technical backgrounds with something...)

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#62

Post by busterarm »

HNcow wrote: post #36

I'm in the process of hiring a junior position and have no bias towards college grads or bootcamp grads. The only negatives towards boot camp grads I've seen so far is: 1) One candidate had no idea what the terms "Class" or "OOP" even meant. I'm FINE with them not understanding stuff like sorts/advanced data structures, but he ACTUALLY had 0 idea what an int was. No lie! 2) I wish there wasn't such a heavy reliance o…

It really depends on which bootcamp. I finally picked up SQL while at App Academy and while we did use JSON, we spent no time working with NoSQL databases. Backend ended up being my strength and my primary role at my (full stack) jobs.

The monetary worth as a junior developer is also very dependent on the bootcamp. A decent App Academy or Dev Bootcamp grad in NYC? 60k is a reasonable minimum IMO and a wage below that in NY isn't really livable. On the other hand, bootcamps like GA? Sure, hiring them is more of a crapshoot. None of the NYC bootcamp grads I know are looking in Jersey though.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#63

Post by kbuchanan »

I think this supports the hypothesis that schooling (secondary, post secondary, bootcamps, whatever) is first and foremost a sorting mechanism. Bootcamps have discovered _one_ avenue for quickly assessing and sorting students into a career they can succeed at.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#64

Post by duaneb »

personjerry wrote: post #29

I think this misses a huge point: College is a huge factor in social development; This is extremely important not only for developing software on a team, but to developing a healthy lifestyle in and out of the workplace.

College is far from a panacea for becoming accustomed to how an adult lives and interacts with other adults. American society encourages taking on massive debt, moving away from a support base, and tying social interaction to practices that are often deeply unhealthy. It took me three years of attending myself to realize my mistake—it nearly drove me to suicide. Dropping out and actually trying to interact with real adults was what got me humming again.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#65

Post by bunnymancer »

vlunkr wrote: post #39
bunnymancer wrote: post #19

Bootcamper here, Of course 3 months is going to get you running with a solid basic knowledge of your stuff. In what world would low-level, algorithms and data structures be doable in 3 months? Point is, I don't think Bootcamps and Colleges are comparable. It's like being a woodworker and a forester.. There's a place for each and it's not the same positions... Now, here's my big question: If your interview includes Pr…

> Point is, I don't think Bootcamps and Colleges are comparable. This is the key takeaway here. I'm working with a bootcamper now and the experience has been pretty bad. But it is a fairly large app, I think it's difficult for him to grasp all the parts, how they connect, and how his changes impact everything else. He can code and make things work, but that's it, we have to make big changes to almost everything he do…

Absolutely. I'm glad to have been hired by a company who had experience with bootcampers before.

They gave me a smooth and solid ramp-up to the mid/senior I am now.

Being thrown in on the deep end with the expectations that the guy with 3 months experience is somehow wellrounded with the basics of CS is just foolish.

Also, of course, not all bootcamps are equal, nor are all students.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#66

Post by DougWebb »

pbiggar wrote: post #22
enjo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just isn't how software is built in practice. Engineers make dozens of architectural decisions every day. They may feel like small ones, but over time they add up to a whole lot of surface area. The skills you learn in Computer Science provide a whole lot more context for your decision making when actually building things. Bootcamps, at least from the folks I've interviewed so far, simply don't prepare their gra…

> Engineers make dozens of architectural decisions every day. > Two really key fundamental knowledge areas if you're goal is to build actually reliable and relatively efficient software. I would challenge you on this, and suspect that you're looking at a relatively thin slice of developers: can you clarify why you believe this to be the case. As a counter-example, a lot of modern web development is building frontends…

I've been building web-based frontends for my entire professional career, and my systems architecture skills have been invaluable throughout. Web frontends don't stand alone; they run on server, they make use of networks and networking hardware, they talk to other services on the same server and other server, and they interact with the operating system. Being able to understand all of those moving parts is crucial to producing a high-quality frontend that's not going to fall apart as soon as it gets put under stress, and that will be maintainable and extensible over time.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#67

Post by balls187 »

bunnymancer wrote: post #19

Bootcamper here, Of course 3 months is going to get you running with a solid basic knowledge of your stuff. In what world would low-level, algorithms and data structures be doable in 3 months? Point is, I don't think Bootcamps and Colleges are comparable. It's like being a woodworker and a forester.. There's a place for each and it's not the same positions... Now, here's my big question: If your interview includes Pr…

> If your interview includes Practical programming, Web system Design, Algorithms and Low level system design...

> What in the nine hells are you hiring for?

Someone who can solve a business problem effectively.

It's not too difficult to shove data into a database, pull it out, and render it to a screen. Nor is it too difficult to pull data out of the db and send it in JSON format.

What do you do when your the performance of your API server doesn't meet customer demands, or you get written up by re//code and get a 1000x spike in traffic?

Let me turn the question around: if you can only hire one person, why would you choose a bootcamp graduate over a CS graduate?

------

Personally, I think the idea of bootcamps are great, and I root pretty hard for anyone who wants to better their situation by going back and learning a new set of skills.

But I have to be skeptical and look at the bootcamp craze, like the outsourcing craze from a decade ago--a way for companies to hire cheap programmers, and a way for bootcamp operators to cash in on the unmet demand.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#68

Post by busterarm »

madmax96 wrote: post #32

I have a slightly more pessimistic view of the situation: Sure, bootcamp grads can write a web application just fine; after all, it's usually only CRUD. But what value are they bringing to an organization? Why would I pay them the same amount as a college graduate who undoubtedly has more total knowledge not only in CS, but in other areas as well? Ideally, a college should expose students to a diverse range of knowle…

A large percentage of the people in my bootcamp already had STEM or law degrees or many years of experience in another technical field (like myself)...and in a few cases both.

I do way more than just CRUD apps - I basically own all of the business logic/processes here at my company. My bosses on a regular basis make it clear that I'm invaluable to the organization.

I think this view is fairly myopic and basically credentialism. As someone who has to interview and make hiring decisions, I swing way in the other direction -- credentials make up maybe 5% of my opinion of a candidate. At best.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#69

Post by lsadam0 »

> Bootcamp grads match or beat college grads on practical skills, and lose on deep knowledge.

I feel as though you are attempting to lower the bar of what is acceptable in order to sell something :). The word 'practical' is thrown around in this article without much of a definition. Are we talking about making simple web pages?

I've just finished conducting a round of interviews for a junior level position, and based on this experience I highly doubt I will be considering bootcamp graduates in the future. As an example, for a question which involved sorting an integer array, and providing a method GetElementAt(index)....95% of the bootcamp applicants implemented sort within the GetElementAt method so that the entire array is sorted with every single call. A handful of CS grads made the same mistake, but most of them did not. Is this sort of oversight excused in the idea of 'practical' programming? Or in your definition, is this considered deep knowledge?

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#70

Post by avs733 »

pbiggar wrote: post #14
avs733 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at what? assessment here would likely be highly task specific. lines of code? first pass code quality? understanding of architecture? ability to link user's handwaving to functional product? To be clear, I agree with you, I just think there are tasks where the CS grads would generally win and those where the bootcampers would win as well rather than looking at this as an overall population comparison. No one size fit…

I meant for "standard" developer positions: I would say far fewer than 10% of developer positions require skills such as knowing how to code quicksort, or knowing the CAP theorem.

sorry but this will inevitably come off as pedantic...knowing how to code quick sort may not be germane how to apply quick sort, what quick sort does and why, and how to evaluate whether quick sort is appropriate are all nested within that 'standard' developer archetype in different ways. Not saying you aren't true, just trying to argue for a less digital approach to interpreting or assessing education in the realm of hiring.
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