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Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

nytimes.com

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Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#61

Post by qsymmachus »

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #55

Ugh - while I agree with the conclusion, the statistical definitions here don't have any connection with reality. $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? Let's translate that into the real world, shall we? $125,000 Household Income.... Who makes it: - IT manager or Senior Dev with stay at home spouse - Mid-level Dev ($90K) married to a K-12 teacher ($40K) - Two junior software developers (co-habit…

> Sad to say, there are many areas of the country where living on $125,000 still definitely sucks.

Only by truly decadent standards could an income of $125,000 be said to "definitely suck". $125k is 2.4x median income and puts you in the 97th percentile of all American workers.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#62

Post by pasquinelli »

stanmancan wrote: post #5
beachstartup wrote: post #2

i'm not sure $125k/year for a family of 3 should really be considered 'upper class'. is 2 working parents barely making 60k each really upper class? i would like to see these numbers for 4x or 5x the median (roughly $250k/year). to me that's really where the delta in income starts to become apparent as manifested in lifestyle choices and accumulated wealth. edit: okay, reading the actual research reveals that pew cal…

Agreed. We live in Canada. Our household income for a family of 3 is just over $125K and I certainly don't feel like we're "upper class". We can't even afford to buy a house where we live.

i think it's pretty typical for people to appraise their own relative income level lower than it actually is.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#63

Post by npalli »

I found the following graph from the same pew research pretty interesting.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2016/05/ST_2016.05.12_m...

Essentially, the middle class shrank from 55% of the population in 2000 to 51% of the population in 2014.

However, the upper class absorbed 3% (3/4th) of the shrinking middle class growing from 17% to 20% of the population, while the lower class absorbed only 1% (1/4th) of the shrinking middle class.

Having said that, you will not hear that 3/4th of the middle have disappeared and become upper class, you will only hear 4% of middle class has disappeared subtly implying everyone has become lower class.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#64

Post by [deleted] »

qsymmachus wrote: post #61
sixtypoundhound wrote: post #55

Ugh - while I agree with the conclusion, the statistical definitions here don't have any connection with reality. $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? Let's translate that into the real world, shall we? $125,000 Household Income.... Who makes it: - IT manager or Senior Dev with stay at home spouse - Mid-level Dev ($90K) married to a K-12 teacher ($40K) - Two junior software developers (co-habit…

> Sad to say, there are many areas of the country where living on $125,000 still definitely sucks. Only by truly decadent standards could an income of $125,000 be said to "definitely suck". $125k is 2.4x median income and puts you in the 97th percentile of all American workers.

[deleted]

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#65

Post by bubbleRefuge »

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #55

Ugh - while I agree with the conclusion, the statistical definitions here don't have any connection with reality. $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? Let's translate that into the real world, shall we? $125,000 Household Income.... Who makes it: - IT manager or Senior Dev with stay at home spouse - Mid-level Dev ($90K) married to a K-12 teacher ($40K) - Two junior software developers (co-habit…

Gr8 point. Also, cost of living is not adjusted for in federal taxes especially if one falls into the standard deduction. Living in the bay area as a renter on 125K, you probably end of paying about 20K in Federal taxes and 30K in rent.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#66

Post by dragonwriter »

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #60
dragonwriter wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? If you click through to the source report, the locality-based breakdowns are, in fact, based on income criteria adjusted from the national definition using metro-area-specific cost of living.

Thank you - missed that. The $125,000 line still doesn't make sense though, even in flyover country (where I live). That's barely enough to buy a 2nd/3rd tier home in a strong school district where I live. Would think that easy access to good schools and good housing are table-stakes for being "upper class".

Again, as I've posted several other places on this thread, the report is addressing a multiplier based region around the median income, a kind of "middle income tier". It has (despite the title) very little to do with "middle class", except insofar as the use of that term is drifting, at least in the US, to refer to various definitions of middle income tiers.

> Would think that easy access to good schools and good housing are table-stakes for being "upper class".

Honestly, I'd say that access to good public schools and good housing are typical for middle class; if you are upper class your housing is probably beyond "good" and you probably aren't concerned, except from a political or philanthropic perspective, with the quality of the public schools.

But this article is (language aside) really about income tiers, not class

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#67

Post by douche »

bubbleRefuge wrote: post #65
sixtypoundhound wrote: post #55

Ugh - while I agree with the conclusion, the statistical definitions here don't have any connection with reality. $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? Let's translate that into the real world, shall we? $125,000 Household Income.... Who makes it: - IT manager or Senior Dev with stay at home spouse - Mid-level Dev ($90K) married to a K-12 teacher ($40K) - Two junior software developers (co-habit…

Gr8 point. Also, cost of living is not adjusted for in federal taxes especially if one falls into the standard deduction. Living in the bay area as a renter on 125K, you probably end of paying about 20K in Federal taxes and 30K in rent.

That does give you a free-and-clear net income of 75k, which is better than a lot of households make before taxes and housing in other parts of the country.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#68

Post by stanmancan »

vox_mollis wrote: post #56
g00gler wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but what do you do for a living? I think it'd be significantly harder to find a job as a developer in the middle of nowhere, it's even hard to find an interesting job in the suburbs IME.

I'm a 60% developer / 40% small team lead. Do it all remotely with trips to California every two months or so. Plenty of positions are available for remote workers. From what I've seen, it's not the employers, but rather the employees. For some reason, the convenience and distractions of cities are lifestyle requirements, not employment requirements. Which is fine, but I take issue with the widespread delusion that l…

Well, I live about a 45 minute drive from Vancouver BC. It's still part of the "Greater Vancouver" area, but it's not like we're living right downtown. The area I live is pretty much all residential. We're not exactly living a fast paced fancy high life. Yes, living here is a choice we make. I could move to the middle of nowhere , buy a house, and have lower expenses. Heck, I could move to a third world country and live like a king for a fraction of what I pay now. But I don't think that's really relevant. My wife and I's families are both close by, our 9 year old daughter has grown up here and has many friends. For a single individual, or a small family without many connections to where they live, it's easier to just up and move on. However, it isn't always as easy as it sounds.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#69

Post by dragontamer »

dragonwriter wrote: post #51
dragontamer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only number that actually matters here is "median household income". The distance away on both sides doesn't matter, because the article is analyzing movement away from the center. Does it matter if you're capturing the middle 20% or the middle 60% of the country? Not really. There are fewer people in the "middle", for some definition of middle.

> Does it matter if you're capturing the middle 20% or the middle 60% of the country? Not really. Its actually capturing a multiplier below and above the median. If it was capturing a fixed percentage in the middle, then the share in the "middle class" could not change over time...

Lol, good point. But you'd be able to see the income spread of the middle class.

Its the spread that matters, and holding the income multiplier steady and then looking at %...

Or holding the % steady (then looking at the income numbers)...

That doesn't matter. Really. They all measure the spread away from the median over time.

Re: Where the Middle Class Is Shrinking

#70

Post by antisthenes »

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #60
dragonwriter wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $125,000 is "upper class", you say, regardless of location? If you click through to the source report, the locality-based breakdowns are, in fact, based on income criteria adjusted from the national definition using metro-area-specific cost of living.

Thank you - missed that. The $125,000 line still doesn't make sense though, even in flyover country (where I live). That's barely enough to buy a 2nd/3rd tier home in a strong school district where I live. Would think that easy access to good schools and good housing are table-stakes for being "upper class".

So what exactly is a 1st tier home by your standards? I've never seen anyone use that classification before.

Most people are just happy to have a roof over their heads.

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