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Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

evonomics.com

61–70 of 79 posts

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#61
post #21

This article is massive clickbait, but I'll comment anyway. Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend that has been building at least since the 2008 Financial Crisis. People are dissatisfied with the options they are presented politically, and economic participation is at historically low levels. We have never been more prosperous, but at the same time that prosperity and wealth gains are not only not…

> Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend ... 2008

8 years is a long-term trend now?

My impression over the past 30+ years being in US (and reading up on history) is that there is a clear downward trend in terms of 'quality' across the board, whether in 'establishment', or 'fringe'. For example, for black radicals we had people like Malcolm X, and then we ended up with Sharpton. Out goes JFK, in comes Billy from Arkansas. Out with Nixon, in with Reagan. If this is a collective bottom-up phenomena, then clearly 'we' are giving ourselves the collective finger.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#62
post #21

This article is massive clickbait, but I'll comment anyway. Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend that has been building at least since the 2008 Financial Crisis. People are dissatisfied with the options they are presented politically, and economic participation is at historically low levels. We have never been more prosperous, but at the same time that prosperity and wealth gains are not only not…

> Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend ... 2008 8 years is a long-term trend now? My impression over the past 30+ years being in US (and reading up on history) is that there is a clear downward trend in terms of 'quality' across the board, whether in 'establishment', or 'fringe'. For example, for black radicals we had people like Malcolm X, and then we ended up with Sharpton. Out goes JFK, in com…

If we're talking about political cycles, then yes that counts as long-term. I agree though this has been going on a lot longer than just since 2008, but 2008 was when I think the tide really started turning.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I'll be controveraial and point out that there are parallels to Prop 8 in California here. And the immigration legislation in Arizona that was overturned. Tell me that doesn't feed into the Trump candidacy.

Well, IMO the biggest thing is the economy -- people feel like they were sold a bill of goods with the experts coming in and telling them that free trade would be great and make them more prosperous and now they live in towns that are shadows of their past selves and suffer under- and unemployment.

The parts of the economy that Trump supporters see are absolutely affected by immigration policy.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#64
post #43

I'm very hopeful this election gives the third parties a boost. Unless I suffer a terrible stroke between now and the election I know I will be voting libertarian simply because I couldn't live with myself voting for Trump or Hillary.

IMHO it will do the exact opposite. People basically vote to keep the other candidate from winning. More radical / "scarier" candidates shore up the party lines.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#65
I strongly believe Trump and Sanders signal to the rabid balkanization of media (aided by proliferation of web, mobile, and social media), rather than an oligarchy on the brink of collapse. It has never been easier to read clickbait radical news that provides ample confirmation bias. Globally speaking, Americans have by far one of the best quality of lives anywhere in the world. But hearing Sanders - Trump, you would think we live in some war ravaged developing country.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And exactly as the article states, there was a revolution exactly at that time because of the effects of the great depression and the lives of those people ended up better than their parents after that same revolution took place. A revolution doesn't need to be an armed revolution.

I care about your ridiculous claim that's being lamented by certain politicians who have nothing better to do than lie at your face. > For the 1st time in recorded history of democratic societies, the sons will live in worst conditions than their parents Can people PLEASE stop saying this line? The article notes a cycle , which is closer to my understanding of history. But none of this "first time ever" crap. I swear…

> The article notes a cycle, which is closer to my understanding of history

That's because either your understanding of history, your written comprehension, or both are quite bad actually.

The article notes a cycle that is always corrected with some kind of revolution, armed or not.

The article also notes that in open societies sons never end up living worts than their parents (in general, not with your naive example of a particular case where a son ends up living a worst life than his parents because of some hurricane) because either society functions properly and that is not a issue, or if it doesn't revolution takes place.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#67
post #33

To be fair, the "New Deal" regime was perceived to be failing circa 1970. For instance, the New Deal left racism intact in the South, there was the Vietnam war, the "Spirit of '68", high inflation, a huge expansion of regulations leading to more problems (for instance the 1974 model year of automobiles were awful because they had to satisfy stricter emission standards without a perfected catalytic converter, etc.) Th…

> "Boaty McBoatface" sealed the deal for Brexit because it symbolizes what "democracy" is about these days. What does that even mean? I hope you don't honestly think that that poll had any effect on the brexit situation? I tend to side with the bookies over listening to polls, and the bookies odds are on staying[1]. Apart from recent football mishaps they seem to be on the ball, they saw Khan coming a mile off for ex…

A lot of people in Europe don't believe in democracy and that "important" decisions shouldn't be left to the people. That people are stupid, and will never vote to advance things. So other methods must be found.

This comes from a series of disappointments: that the formation itself of the EU in the first place was rejected democratically, that the establishment of a mostly pro-forma EU parliament was rejected, that a lot of projects were rejected, that the outlawing of free plastic bags at supermarkets (for the environment) was rejected ... the list goes on. These democratic decisions were overridden and many see them as great accomplishments. They certainly make life easier, but one might criticize that they only make the life of the rich easier : people who get more advantage from being mobile in Europe and don't get destroyed by the mobility of cheap labour (e.g. from Poland). Without this antidemocratic behavior there would never have been a Euro, or open borders.

I personally just can't bring myself to believe that the people who have advanced things have anything but their own best interests at heart ... And there are other major criticism of these "accomplishments" of the antidemocratic measures. Frankly the EU state can rightfully be called undemocratic and it is true that, to put things mildly, it is pro-business and anti-working class. I would agree with the assessment that people who think that placing an undemocratic super-state above the country governments in Europe is going to help them are deluding themselves, to put it mildly. I feel like this state could very easily either fall apart, or worse, turn into tyranny. Technically it already is tyranny, but it is not felt like that by those part of the upper middle class (ie. "skilled labour"). It is most definitely felt by manufacturing workers, or tradesmen, shopkeepers or shop assistants and the like. Since more and more people are feeling the unpleasant side of Europe, this seems likely to get worse over time.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#68
post #19
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama was an "outsider". It's been a while since campaigns are not won by just money. My theory is the rich elites don't want to wield their power through governments anymore.

Obama raised more than any president in history from what I understand.

Not by elite donors though. As I understand, it was donations from a very large user base: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_presidential_camp...

The campaign raised much of its cash in small donations over the internet, with about half of its intake coming in increments of less than $200.[53] Both major party campaigns screened regularly for patterns of abuse and returned or rejected donations in excess of legal limits, from overseas, from untraceable addresses, or from fraudulent names

and his second campaign had 3 times larger user base.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I care about your ridiculous claim that's being lamented by certain politicians who have nothing better to do than lie at your face. > For the 1st time in recorded history of democratic societies, the sons will live in worst conditions than their parents Can people PLEASE stop saying this line? The article notes a cycle , which is closer to my understanding of history. But none of this "first time ever" crap. I swear…

> The article notes a cycle, which is closer to my understanding of history That's because either your understanding of history, your written comprehension, or both are quite bad actually. The article notes a cycle that is always corrected with some kind of revolution, armed or not. The article also notes that in open societies sons never end up living worts than their parents (in general, not with your naive example…

The article isn't matching my political views, so don't pretend that I agree with what it says. But that's beside the point.

> in general, not with your naive example of a particular case where a son ends up living a worst life than his parents because of some hurricane

You know you're dissing "Their Eyes were Watching God", right? This isn't exactly an unpopular novel.

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My point is that the article is actually good on history (although I disagree with how the author interprets history). You however, are nowhere close to historically accurate.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, IMO the biggest thing is the economy -- people feel like they were sold a bill of goods with the experts coming in and telling them that free trade would be great and make them more prosperous and now they live in towns that are shadows of their past selves and suffer under- and unemployment.

The parts of the economy that Trump supporters see are absolutely affected by immigration policy.

Well, that's true, but it'd be less of a hot-button issue if so many factories weren't shuttered.

Anyway, your point about judicial review is well taken -- whether you're the type of person to get riled up about Prop 8 or about Citizens United it's basically anti-democratic.

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